Question about "Details" section

[PatrickJ]

Hi,

I'm having some issues with the "Details" section in Photo Supreme, and I'm not sure if I am doing something wrong, corrupt files or possibly even a PSu bug. There are 3 observations that I've done in the past 2 weeks, can't say for sure they are related at all but will write them down here instead of spam the forum with 3 different posts.

1. I've created a profile in "Details", which I want to use to clear out some fields (headline, description, keywords etc). When creating the profile I select "Clear content" for the fields I want cleared (red dot). When using the profile, initially it looks to be working - all fields are cleared as expected. However, I can't seem to save the result and the values re-appear if I deselect/reselect the TIF. I've tried:

- Pressing OK at the bottom right (with different options from the drop-down)
- Saving the file (Commad + S)
- Pressing OK at the bottom right, then saving the file (Command + S)

Regardless what I try cleared values always return, and it seems to be the case for all TIF files I've tried this with.


2. About a week ago I I've noticed a lot of my TIF files suddenly where missing all camera EXIF data (found in the Details/Technical section). 100% sure it existed before. Tried to import the TIF files to other applications, Capture One and Affinity Photo, and to my surprise both show the missing the EXIF without issues. I then did a full EXIF dump from PSu, and I can see the technical camera details are indeed there so it's not entirely lost - just not visible in PSu. I've tried to re-import the files, "Read metadata from file" but it still just shows blank fields. My workaround for now, which sees to work, is do a "Import from sidecar XMP file" which seems to fill out the blank fields and save them in PSu.


3. Today I noticed a similar issue as above with a few TIF files where the "Lens information" field suddenly went missing. Tried to manually re-enter the lens information, both directly in "Details" and using the "Edit lens information" metadata script. Like in the first topic above it initially seems to work, the lens information seems to be there, but as soon as I deselect the file and re-select it goes empty.
I then opened the file in Affinity Photo, and in the metadata tab I can indeed see the lens information (PSu shows it as empty). As a final test I tried to change the lens info again in PSu, using both methods, and the changes are indeed reflected in Affinity Photo. So it seems that writing the new values to the file from PSu works, which is confirmed in Affinity Photo, but for some reason PSu itself does not read/show it correctly.


Let me know if you need me to provide more information, thanks!

Patrick

[Hert]

Some tools are notorious for creating half baked XMP and since Psu is fully XMP driven you’ll notice that right away.

Luckily you can fix such XMP by right click on a thumb and then select Metadata- Convert metadata to XMP.

[PatrickJ]

Hi Hert,

Thanks, I think I need some more clarification here as I seem to lack some basic knowledge and currently have no working workflow for consistent results. Let's focus on one particular image, and let me start by giving some more information in case it matters:

• The RAW file is in the same folder as the TIF, same file name.

• Folder contains the XMP sidecar as well

• Until yesterday the RAW and TIF where in the same "version set" in PSu, and were labelled as one set

To troubleshoot I destroyed the version set, and this is when I started noticing more discrepancies. I have done some more testing and can report the following:

• The RAW file contains the lens information in PSu, but does not allow me to change it (same behaviour - reverts back to the previous values)

• I noticed the TIF has a different headline than the RAW, together with old keywords. These were set in Capture One back in the day (now I only use CO as a RAW developer, but these are old photos). I had cleaned these out, but indeed they seem to be still present somewhere supporting what you said about half baked XMP.

• Now and then I get labels added to the Miscellaneous category, even if I remove them they creep back at some point (not sure exactly when). I assume it's from the TIF, where the keywords are lurking and when I test around they PSu imports them back.

• Suggested "Metadata- Convert metadata to XMP" didn't make any difference, I think I've tried that before as well. Behaviour as mentioned above persists.

Trying to find a way forward, so also did the following:

• Create a new empty document in Affinity Photo

• Manually copy the photo to this new empty space, assuming this would be a clean slate with no metadata whatsoever.

• Replaced the tif in the folder which PSu reads from, then verified the folder. The TIF now shows no metadata in PSu, as expected. Copied all labels from the RAW file, and pasted them to the new TIF. So far so good.

• Moved the XMP sidecar from the folder, and had PSu generate a new one by "Command+S" the RAW file. Checked the new XMP sidecar content, it contains the camera EXIF.

• Selected the TIF, and ran the "Import from sidecar XMP" option. Unfortunately this time it did not seem to import any of the technical data (the XMP is however reported found by PSu).

• Opened the TIF in Affinity Photo just to verify, and indeed the camera EXIF is missing. So the import failed.

Any suggestions are appreciated! I've been stuck on the same set of photos for about 3 weeks now, restarted 2 times already. Hoping to find a workflow that I can trust which gives 1) consistent results in PSu, 2.) maintain EXIF metadata and 3.) does not change over time. If a lot of manual work is needed so be it.


Cheers!

[PatrickJ]

I should also mention the software I use are:
1. Capture One, latest verison
2. Affinity Photo 2
3. PSu
4. Topaz DeNoise

In case any of the above is a well known metadata offender .

[Hert]

If you import XMP from a sidecar file then that imports the XMP. Not the Exif.

I hoped others would chime in because I think you need the cascade metadata feature that is part of Stacking or Versioning (I prefer stacking over versioning). I never use metadata cascading for my workflow but I know others do.

[apanella]

I can't offer much other than I use tools 1-3 listed above. I do not use versioning or stacking.

For C1 metadata setting: I use Full Sync and "Prefer sidecar XMP over embedded metadata"
(I don't think this "Full Sync" is "Hert approved")

At the same time, I do not have any issues described.

[PatrickJ]

In C1 I have auto sync XMP set to "None", and "prefer sidecar XMP" as I want PSu to handle all that stuff.

I have to admit I thought when importing the XMP it would also import the EXIF, as the XMP sidecar contains the EXIF data. Also...it did exactly this before, as mentioned in the top post it DID import the camera EXIF. Very confusing.

I will try to following today:
1. In C1 - create a new TIF from each RAW, and only have camera metadata checked (hopefully it will create a clean TIF with the EXIF in place).
2. In Affinity - copy the image layer from the old photo to the newly created one.
2. Import the file to PSU, and copy/past the labels.
3. Celebrate that it worked!

[PatrickJ]

If you import XMP from a sidecar file then that imports the XMP. Not the Exif.

I hoped others would chime in because I think you need the cascade metadata feature that is part of Stacking or Versioning (I prefer stacking over versioning). I never use metadata cascading for my workflow but I know others do.

Not sure I understand the above, would cascading be an additional feature, something that is currently missing, or something I can configure? Will check the manuals later on.

[PatrickJ]

I will try to following today:
1. In C1 - create a new TIF from each RAW, and only have camera metadata checked (hopefully it will create a clean TIF with the EXIF in place).
2. In Affinity - copy the image layer from the old photo to the newly created one.
2. Import the file to PSU, and copy/past the labels.
3. Celebrate that it worked!

Unfortunately this failed, and if anything raised more questions. I exported a new fresh TIF from C1 (from the RAW file), with only the "Camera metadata" ticked. I then opened the new file in different applications with the following results:

• PSu - After import, PSu is NOT showing f-number, focal length, exposure time, ISO, color space. Empty.

• CaptureOne - All camera metadata shows as expected.

• Affinity Photo - - All camera metadata shows as expected.

• EXIF Pilot - All camera metadata shows as expected.

• MacOS (right click + more info) - All camera metadata shows as expected.

I also tried to exporting the TIF -> JPEG directly from PSu, and oddly enough all camera data is present in the resulting JPEG. Running a "Full EXIF dump" in PSu on the TIF shows the camera metadata is indeed there. PSu is also not adding the missing values to the "Details/Technical" filters (top part of the UI), but I guess that was expected. There are more oddities happening as well, but I'll ignore those for now (will be impossible to follow this thread otherwise).

Screenshots from each application:

[Hert]

Can you send a sample TIF file to support@idimager.com
tia

[PatrickJ]

Can you send a sample TIF file to support@idimager.com
tia

Of course - sending you the tiff shortly! Thanks!

Patrick

[Hert]

Thank you for the sample file.
I have imported the file and the technical details in the file are indeed empty. After that I did right click -> Metadata -> Convert Metadata to XMP and the technical details rolled in.

TifMetadata.png (197.03 KiB) Viewed 6703 times

[Hert]

In addition to the above. I notice that the XMP in the TIF originates from an ORF file. I think that is because you imported the XMP from the sidecar file. But...to me that indicates that the tool that created the XMP sidecar file from the ORF is the tool that created the half baked XMP.

You could try to:
1. Use the "Metadata -> Convert metadata to XMP" option on the ORF file
2. After that import the XMP sidecar to the TIF

Does that make sense? Of course it would be better that the tool that created the XMP for the ORF did a better job in the first place.

[PatrickJ]

Thanks Hert - appreciate the support!

Will do some more testing with your suggestions. I see what you mean, this is something I haven't tried yet, will do some more testing later today and let you know! I'm sure it's the XMP that is the cause of this, and if I can find a "formula" to remove all crappy metadata and re-add it that would be great. Will let you know - thanks!

[PatrickJ]

Hert, quick question - what is "Metadata -> Convert metadata to XMP" actually suppose to do? It does not seem to create a XMP sidecar file if missing, does one need to exist in the first place? Or am I misunderstanding the purpose, and it has nothing to do with XMP sidecar creation?

I tried to change a value of the ORF and then a XMP was generated, tried to import that one and indeed now I can see the camera metadata in the TIF! Progress!