Location labels and fields in Photo Supreme 3

[vlad]

Ok, I am officially confused about how the location labels inside Places work in PSU V3 (I'm on build 2060):

1. All the shipped labels under Europe and North America have geo mappings already specified (e.g., photoshop:Country or photoshop:City) and the GPS coordinates are already filled in. I certainly appreciate the pre-filled location info, but shouldn't the default label mappings also include the appropriate fields in LocationCreated (e.g., Iptc4xmpExt:LocationCreated.Iptc4xmpExt:CountryName)? Has this been overlooked or is it intentional? (Fwiw, the GEO Tag panel always fills both kinds of fields.)

2. I created the label Uganda under Africa (just to experiment, because no countries were defined there by default), without specifying any mapping or geo location. I was expecting that assigning the label to an image would perhaps write Uganda to the Country field, similar to how the labels under People get automatically written to PersonInImage. This did not happen. Does it work as designed or is it a bug? (My 'Geo Location processing' preference is set 'Up to Location Level'.)

3. Next, I am editing the Uganda label and manually setting the photoshop:Country label mapping. Then I'm picking an image, I'm opening the Details panel and I'm writing Uganda in its photoshop:Country field. At this point, if I write-sync the image (Ctrl+S), the label Uganda gets auto-assigned! That's certainly nice, although I was a bit surprised, because the "GEO Location processing" preferences are under the Read settings. Does it work as designed? Any explanation?

4. Now, I am writing Kampala in the photoship:City field and I am saving again the metadata. At this point, a Kampala label is automatically created and assigned to the image! (Furthermore, if I open the label details, I can see the photoshop:City custom mapping already specified. Nice!) There is a (big) problem, however: the label has been created directly under the top-level Places category rather than the Uganda label. The problem seems to be that a State/Province level is expected between a Country and a City. (If I'm also writing the State/Province field, then a label with that name is correctly created under Uganda and then Kampala gets also correctly created under that label.) However, this does *not* seem to be a problem if I specify an existing or a new European city. Does this work as designed? Any explanation, please?

It's hard for me to open useful Mantis tickets at this point, since I do not understand what the designed behaviour is. I also think other people may be interested in how the location labels and fields work. Does anyone have any experience or insights? Thanks in advance.

[vlad]

Further findings, comments and questions:

5. Qualification to the last statement (about European cities) in paragraph 4: a city label is correctly created or matched only if the State/Province field is empty. Let's say I have an image already assigned to Places->Netherlands->Rotterdam. If I select the image, open the GEO Tag panel and do a reverse lookup on the GPS coordinates, then the Zuid-Holland value is filled in the State/Province field. I then click Apply and, guess what's happening, two new labels are created: Zuid-Holland under Netherlands and Rotterdam under Zuid-Holland, and the latter gets automatically assigned. That means the image ends up with duplicate labels assigned:
> Places::Netherlands::Rotterdam
> Places::Netherlands::Zuid-Holland::Rotterdam

This duplication does not seem right, especially given that the the shipped catalog does not include state/province level info for the geo labels under Europe! (It does include this level for Canada and USA, and that's cool!) I am thinking that PSU should somehow be smart enough to ignore the State/Province field whenever the country label is found and a matching city already exists under it. On the contrary, if the Country and City fields are already filled but the State/Province field is empty, then PSU should look for a matching city label both under the matching country label and also on the second level labels under the country. (This way, an image with only New York City specified will be correctly matched against Places::United States of America::New York::New York City, rather than a new Places::United States of America::New York City label being incorrectly created at the state level. Also, Kampala should be created directly under Uganda, if Uganda is found and there are no labels under it.) Does this make sense?

6. If I unassign a label (say, Rotterdam) under Places, no location info is touched (that is, cleared). However, the moment I touch the image details in any way and save the metadata again, the label Rotterdam is automatically reassigned. (I can reliably reproduce this.) I presume this happens because the location info is reread and label-matched even upon a write-sync, but this is certainly strange (until you understand what's going on, at least) and may lead to some unexpected results. Does it work as designed or is it a bug?

(Please note that the PersonInImage field is automatically cleared whenever I unassign a label under People, so one thing is for sure: the current label-field mapping behavior is not consistent across different fields/categories.)

7. Are the existing LocationCreated fields taken into account when looking for a matching label? What happens when both the legacy and IPTC extension fields are present in the metadata? Which fields are used for location label lookup?

(...See, that's where I'm starting to miss an advanced manual or that Xref document that Harald was talking about; yet, I'll be happy even with some simple answers for now.)

[LifeIsLong]

I too am interested in these "features." I read through your points and would add my own (though I'm pretty sure they duplicate yours, just shaky as to terminology):

K1: I have a label Places::United States::North Carolina::Buxton. Several pictures are tagged with this label. Then I go back and set a "details profile" (not exactly sure what that is) and check both IPTC city fields. I click apply and check the image details and no fields are changed/added. Is this intended? How do I force an update when I change a label? (this goes along with your number 6 above)
K2: Given the same label as above, I set a geo coordinates for the label. How does this interact with the geo tagging panel and the details panel? I've not been able to determine a good correlation between these three entities.

Agree that a manual for this stuff would be nice. I don't even know what the photoshop fields are for (given that I don't use photoshop). I know one big reason for PS was to make things easier for novices... while the features being discussed here are necessarily complex, I don't see how they have been made intuitive.

[vlad]

K1: I have a label Places::United States::North Carolina::Buxton. Several pictures are tagged with this label. Then I go back and set a "details profile" (not exactly sure what that is) and check both IPTC city fields.

You are setting a details profile for the Buxton label, right? The profile associated to a label specifies the set of metadata changes that you want applied to all images with that label. For example, if you specify location field values in the Buxton label profile, then the images with the Buxton label should get those location values in their metadata.

I click apply and check the image details and no fields are changed/added. Is this intended? How do I force an update when I change a label? (this goes along with your number 6 above)

I'm not sure if changes to the details profile apply to images which already have the label assigned or if the changes take effect only going forward (for future label assignments). Nor do I know if the current implementation matches the intended behavior. Anyway: do you have auto-write-synching enabled in the global settings? Are the Buxton images in sync or not? In any case, I would advise to select all images with the Buxton label and manually save metadata (Ctrl+S). Does that help?

K2: Given the same label as above, I set a geo coordinates for the label. How does this interact with the geo tagging panel and the details panel? I've not been able to determine a good correlation between these three entities.

If you defined GEO coordinates in the Buxton label, you should see them in both the Details and in the GEO tag panel for any relevant image. (Once again, you may need to force a Ctrl+S on the images that had been assigned the Buxton label before you added the geo coordinates to it.)

Agree that a manual for this stuff would be nice. I don't even know what the photoshop fields are for (given that I don't use photoshop). I know one big reason for PS was to make things easier for novices... while the features being discussed here are necessarily complex, I don't see how they have been made intuitive.

A manual - or a workbook...

I am not sure how the GEO features could be made much more user-friendly, except for specific issues like Mantis #2200. (Just wondering: am I the only one who is really missing the globe button in the label details?)

While the GPS coordinates help me see the images on a map (tangible benefit), I'm starting to ponder whether writing and maintaining the IPTC/XMP location fields (such as 'photoshop:City') is actually worth the trouble for a non-professional photographer (like myself)... Any advice is appreciated.

[Mke]

Just wondering: am I the only one who is really missing the globe button in the label details?

You just got a +1 - it would often help me.

While the GPS coordinates help me see the images on a map (tangible benefit), I'm starting to ponder whether writing and maintaining the IPTC/XMP location fields (such as 'photoshop:City') is actually worth the trouble for a non-professional photographer (like myself)... Any advice is appreciated.

As you will have gathered, for me they're generally not (as currently implemented).
Before the rise of GPS, IPTC/XMP location fields had an obvious value as a means of storing location information
Now, if you have the geo coordinates in the metadata you can easily generate IPTC/XMP location data for specific images at any future point if required.
In this respect the IPTC/XMP location fields are different from most (all?) others, which can't be generated from other metadata.

[Hert]

Vlad, your request for a map in the label details will be added to the next update.

[Mke]

Thanks Hert,

Appreciated by me too

[chuckhebert40]

Yes – thanks, Hert, for the global promise!

I have some questions beyond those raised by Vlad, concerned with different behaviours depending on whether a place is assigned directly or as a result of using the GEO Tag panel

1. If I create a label in the Catalog directly or by using the Assign panel, it is set up by default with the setting “Create keyword for this label”. However, if I enter location data in the GEO Tag panel, any Catalog labels created have the setting “Do not create keyword for this label”. I think it would be better if there was consistency. I would personally prefer it to default to creating a keyword, although since this might not suite everyone, maybe it could be a new parameter in the Preferences.

2. I have City, State and Country labels in the Catalog entries set to map to the appropriate photoshop and LocationShown.Iptc4xmpExt fields; all these labels have “Process parent mapping” set.
If I assign one of these labels using the Assign panel, then the photoshop fields are created in the metadata, including the fields for parents, but no Iptc4xmpExt fields are created.
However, when I assign a City indirectly through using the GEO Tag panel I do get Iptc4xmpExt fields created, but I have encountered issues.
The fields are set up either under the LocationCreated heading, or with no heading, even though the mapping specified in all cases is for LocationShown.
I don’t get all three fields created (City, State, Country). Usually just City (plus WorldRegion, which says “World” – I’m not sure how useful that is!). I say “usually” because I have had other results, depending on the sequence of steps taken.

An associated issue concerns the clearing of metadata fields when an assignment is revoked. If (for example) I assign a City, with my current settings the resultant metadata has City and the higher levels as keywords in dc:subject, and in the lr:hierarchicalSubject fields, plus the photoshop fields, and (if it was working as I think it should) the various fields under Iptc4xmpExt. However, if I revoke the City assignment only the dc:subject and lr:hierarchicalSubject fields are cleared, leaving inconsistent information in the metadata; I believe that all these fields should be cleared.

[LifeIsLong]

Charles, I agree with your #2 and associated issue. If I setup the label to apply the field data, I expect to see it when I apply the label. From what I have seen this is not the case.

[vlad]

Hert, thank you very much, that's great news! Will it be just a map with a marker or will it allow the setting of location fields too (like the GEO Tag panel)?

1. If I create a label in the Catalog directly or by using the Assign panel, it is set up by default with the setting “Create keyword for this label”. However, if I enter location data in the GEO Tag panel, any Catalog labels created have the setting “Do not create keyword for this label”. I think it would be better if there was consistency. I would personally prefer it to default to creating a keyword, although since this might not suite everyone, maybe it could be a new parameter in the Preferences.

I also think it should default to creating a keyword. Long term thinking: I'd rather have the default settable (but overrideable) for the whole Places category rather than specifically for how location labels are created via the Geo Tag panel. That process should simply obey the default for the whole category.

2. I have City, State and Country labels in the Catalog entries set to map to the appropriate photoshop and LocationShown.Iptc4xmpExt fields; all these labels have “Process parent mapping” set.
If I assign one of these labels using the Assign panel, then the photoshop fields are created in the metadata, including the fields for parents, but no Iptc4xmpExt fields are created.
However, when I assign a City indirectly through using the GEO Tag panel I do get Iptc4xmpExt fields created, but I have encountered issues.
The fields are set up either under the LocationCreated heading, or with no heading, even though the mapping specified in all cases is for LocationShown.
I don’t get all three fields created (City, State, Country). Usually just City (plus WorldRegion, which says “World” – I’m not sure how useful that is!). I say “usually” because I have had other results, depending on the sequence of steps taken.

Charles, I don't remember if I have noticed these specific issues and I can't test right now, as I'm away without my PSU laptop. But the sort of (unavoidable?) headaches associated to location fields may well prompt me to reconsider if I really want to bother with them. What's your take on Mke's opinion (i.e., location fields are not worth the trouble if you have the GPS coordinates)?

An associated issue concerns the clearing of metadata fields when an assignment is revoked. If (for example) I assign a City, with my current settings the resultant metadata has City and the higher levels as keywords in dc:subject, and in the lr:hierarchicalSubject fields, plus the photoshop fields, and (if it was working as I think it should) the various fields under Iptc4xmpExt. However, if I revoke the City assignment only the dc:subject and lr:hierarchicalSubject fields are cleared, leaving inconsistent information in the metadata; I believe that all these fields should be cleared.

I have been undecided about this, but I'm more and more thinking like you, that clearing *all* fields (whatever those are) mapped to the revoked label is a sensible expectation. (Besides, consistency is good.) For safety reasons, however, the default global setting should then perhaps be changed to *not* automatically create location labels from location fields. (With the current default, someone might get location labels inadvertendly created and assigned out of pre-existing location field metadata - and then he might choose to delete just the location labels, without any metadata being touched.)

Charles, I agree with your #2 and associated issue. If I setup the label to apply the field data, I expect to see it when I apply the label. From what I have seen this is not the case.

The field data should be written upon saving the metadata (which may happen at a differnt time than the label assignment). Are your images in sync and the mapped fields are still not there?

[chuckhebert40]

Vlad wrote:
I also think it should default to creating a keyword. Long term thinking: I'd rather have the default settable (but overrideable) for the whole Places category rather than specifically for how location labels are created via the Geo Tag panel. That process should simply obey the default for the whole category.

I primarily would like consistency; I agree about dealing with the whole category.

the sort of (unavoidable?) headaches associated to location fields may well prompt me to reconsider if I really want to bother with them. What's your take on Mke's opinion (i.e., location fields are not worth the trouble if you have the GPS coordinates)?

I’ve been looking further into the workings of PS mainly to get a better understanding of it. I personally manage my photos purely through the Catalog, and don’t (currently) put photos where people might want to search them, so the metadata is actually of no interest to me (for now), except as a backup mechanism (e.g. lr:hierarchicalSubject). I assign labels to photos according to what’s in the picture, but I do have a lot of photos where the LocationShown and the LocationCreated would be significantly different, and I have wondered whether I might in some cases choose to set the LocationCreated directly in the metadata, which is one reason I've looked at that.
Leaving aside my own positionregarding metadata location fields (as opposed to labels), I would agree with Mke’s point about GPS coordinates in general. However, I have quite a lot of pictures that are taken in the middle of nowhere, and for these I need to create position information manually (in my case, labels). The other obvious thing about coordinates is that they relate to the camera position, so do not necessarily relate well to the subject of the photo, as I've mentioned in the previous para.

For safety reasons, however, the default global setting should then perhaps be changed to *not* automatically create location labels from location fields. (With the current default, someone might get location labels inadvertently created and assigned out of pre-existing location field metadata - and then he might choose to delete just the location labels, without any metadata uched.)

I can see your reasoning for suggesting a “not” default, but as with the “Create keyword” issue, the ideal would be to be able to choose the default with a parameter set in Preferences. Personally, I prefer to create keywords – without this setting you get no hierarchical keywords or ICS entries, and they’re a fallback mechanism mentioned by many people.

The field data should be written upon saving the metadata (which may happen at a different time than the label assignment). Are your images in sync and the mapped fields are still not there?

If a label has mapping to metadata fields, then surely the metadata in the PS database should be updated when the label is assigned? In practice, this seems to be happening. If I assign a City label to an image, then the photoshop fields (City, plus parents if set that way) are immediately written to the metadata. What is not happening is the writing of the mapped Iptc4xmpExt fields. The writing of metadata to the image file – i.e. syncing – is a different issue. As far as I am aware this works fine. I looked at metadata in the PS Details panel (which I assume reflects what’s on the PS database), but also sometimes examine what’s on the image files using ExifToolGUI, and I’ve found consistency.

I have been trying to understand another issue. My global Write Setttings are (only) “Include all parent level labels as keywords”, and “Write hierarchical keywords”.
I have a country::state::city hierarchy in the Catalog, with the following settings for each level:
Country – Create keyword; mapped to photoshop:Country; do not process parent mapping
State – Do not create keyword; mapped to photoshop:State; do not process parent mapping
City – Create keyword; no mapping; do not process parent mapping.
Having assigned City using the Assign panel, the resultant keywords were City and Country, as expected, and lr:hierarchicalSubject reflected the full hierarchy, again as expected. There was no photoshop:City field; this too was as expected, since City isn’t mapped. I had assumed there would be no photoshop fields for State or Country, given that City was set not to process parent mapping. However, while there was no photoshop:State entry, there was a photoshop:Country field, which was puzzling.
Experimentation showed that the photoshop:Country field was not created if the global setting “Include all parent level labels as keywords” was unchecked. What this tells me is that the photoshop:Country field was being created because the Country keyword was being created. I had assumed that a photoshop field (or any other mapped field) would be created only if the label was assigned, or if a child label was assigned which had “Process parent mapping” set. Indirect processes like this can be troublesome, in my view.

[vlad]

For safety reasons, however, the default global setting should then perhaps be changed to *not* automatically create location labels from location fields. (With the current default, someone might get location labels inadvertently created and assigned out of pre-existing location field metadata - and then he might choose to delete just the location labels, without any metadata uched.)

I can see your reasoning for suggesting a “not” default, but as with the “Create keyword” issue, the ideal would be to be able to choose the default with a parameter set in Preferences.

Charles, I was merely suggesting the default value(s) for the parameter(s) available in global preferences - it would make sense to set the value of such a global parameter yourself, but not to set its default value, right? If we are talking about setting the default values of label properties, then we are in agreement - and I have suggested some kind of label templates (#2588, #2844 in Mantis) to achieve that.

Personally, I prefer to create keywords – without this setting you get no hierarchical keywords or ICS entries, and they’re a fallback mechanism mentioned by many people.

I also prefer to create keywords for locations, but I'll make a slight correction: you can get ICS entries without getting keywords (by selecting "Do not create keywords", as opposed to Private).

The field data should be written upon saving the metadata (which may happen at a different time than the label assignment). Are your images in sync and the mapped fields are still not there?

If a label has mapping to metadata fields, then surely the metadata in the PS database should be updated when the label is assigned?

Well, that's what I had thought for a long time too, but it's really not that simple - especially if we are also talking about metadata fields that could be written via detail profiles, parent mapping processing, etc. (If you are interested and patient enough, you may read the technical notes in Mantis ticket #2454, where Hert was very kind to provide some valuable explanations and insights.)

To summarize, my current understanding is that certain metadata is written to the catalog "in real time" (whenever a label is assigned), while certain metadata controlled by labels may be updated (even in the PS database) only at sync time. (Obviously, if you enabled the auto-saving of metadata, you may not notice any difference.) Since I can't yet grasp all conditions and subtleties, I prefer to take a conservative view of the general PSU contract: metadata is guaranteed to be up to date (both in the DB + physical files) only when the images are in-sync.

In practice, this seems to be happening. If I assign a City label to an image, then the photoshop fields (City, plus parents if set that way) are immediately written to the metadata. What is not happening is the writing of the mapped Iptc4xmpExt fields.

Are the mapped Iptc4xmpExt fields correctly written upon syncing? If yes, then the difference in timing between the updates may be caused by the inner design (and, therefore, not a bug, although it is indeed confusing for the user).

The writing of metadata to the image file – i.e. syncing – is a different issue.

Not entirely, based on my current understanding. (Of course, that may still be flawed.)

Experimentation showed that the photoshop:Country field was not created if the global setting “Include all parent level labels as keywords” was unchecked. What this tells me is that the photoshop:Country field was being created because the Country keyword was being created.

That seems clearly a bug. I had reported a very similar defect (#2161), but Hert promptly fixed it in Photo Supreme 2. What you're reporting now may be a regression of #2161 or a side issue. Either way, I would encourage you to open a new ticket in Mantis.

I had assumed that a photoshop field (or any other mapped field) would be created only if the label was assigned, or if a child label was assigned which had “Process parent mapping” set. Indirect processes like this can be troublesome, in my view.

Agreed.

[chuckhebert40]

Thanks Vlad. I haven't time now to deal with all the points you raise (just about to go away, and will have no PSU and generally no connection), but on this question:

Are the mapped Iptc4xmpExt fields correctly written upon syncing? If yes, then the difference in timing between the updates may be caused by the inner design (and, therefore, not a bug, although it is indeed confusing for the user).

I can confirm on the basis of a quick re-look at it that the Iptc4xmpExt fields are not being written even when I sync (by which I understand you to mean writing the metadata to the image file - which I actually have set permanently in the Preferences). I do have some images with Iptc4xmpExt place fields, but I don't know what the history of those images is. What I do know is that (a) simply assigning a place label doesn't create the Iptc4xmpExt fields, and (b) as I reported earlier, if a field is created (which takes more than one step) then it is under the the LocationCreated heading even when the mapping is to the LocationShown field.

[vlad]

Charles, thanks for reporting back. I would say that the issues you raised point to some likely defects (or shortcomings) and warrant further investigation.

[bimo]

Dear all,
as far as I remember, the GEO-tagging panel only supports the IPTC-Core fields, which have been replaced years ago by the IPTC4XMPEXT:LocationCreated- fields. It would be great, if PSU would deal with the IPTC4XMPEXT as well.

For a proposal on how to include the LocationShown fields, please have a look at Mantis 2103.