Writing metadata seems to update also the catalog

[HaraldE]

Morning,

I have 2 photos, called 109 and 112, both scanned from old slides. 109 has the label Archive while 112 only has keyword Archive.

The reason why I have Archive as a keyword in some files and as a label in others is unclear. This messy situation is what I am trying to un-mess. Maybe below behaviour will actually help me.

I did a "Save metadata to file" on both and saw a difference which I do not understand. For 109 nothing seemed to change while for 112 the Details Panel was immediately changed, all keywords were removed.

So my question are:
> Why was the catalog changed when I did a "Save ..." to file? Does this action also trigger a "Read" from file?
> If I do a "Save ..." on many photos, will that then remove all keywords in selected files?

If required I can provide detailes on this.

Regards, Harald

[jstartin]

What happens on a save to file will depend on how you have set up the options available. There are metadata options for each label accessed from the label details dialog, and there are global synchronize options available from preferences. How are they set up now, and what changes have you made in the past?

[HaraldE]

Thanks, should have provided this from start.

Below is a snapshot of the preferencies. Also attached details about the label called Archive.

I have not set up this label myself so have never seen this Catalog Label panel before. This label (and some others also assigned to same photo) are folder names. A long time ago I did some experiments with the folder path structure and I am sure this is why I have these labels / keywords.

Does what you see below explain why the catalog is updated when I "Write metadata ..."?

Regards, Harald

read.JPG (39.13 KiB) Viewed 8579 times

write.JPG (46.07 KiB) Viewed 8579 times

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archive.JPG (32.77 KiB) Viewed 8579 times

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[Mike Buckley]

Notice your Write Keywords Processing setting, which replaces keywords with catalog labels. Writing to the image file would have removed all keywords if those keywords weren't also in the catalog as catalog labels.

I'm confused about why your catalog is being changed, as I'm not understanding the details that exist before and after the change.

[vlad]

Hi Harald,

I did a "Save metadata to file" on both and saw a difference which I do not understand. For 109 nothing seemed to change while for 112 the Details Panel was immediately changed, all keywords were removed.

That makes sense to me, since 109 already had the labels and keywords in sync, while replacing the keywords with labels in 112 means that all the keywords had to be removed (since 112 had no label). This policy follows your setting to "Replace keywords with existing Catalog labels".

So my question are:
> Why was the catalog changed when I did a "Save ..." to file? Does this action also trigger a "Read" from file?

Your image metadata was changed (as explained above) - and the catalog (metadata) has been merely updated to reflect the change in the file. That makes sense to me.

> If I do a "Save ..." on many photos, will that then remove all keywords in selected files?

It will remove all the keywords for which there are no corresponding labels assigned. (That may mean all of them, part of them or none of them - depending on your actual label-keyword (mis)matches.) You could change your keyword setting if that is not what you want.

Hope that helps,
Vlad

[HaraldE]

Thanks to all, I am still a bit confused (easily done)

Thanks for pointing out the setting of "Keyword processing", must say I hadn't considered that as part of this drama.

Mike: I'm confused about why your catalog is being changed, as I'm not understanding the details that exist before and after the change.

Not a lot to say Mike. Before the Write I checked 112 for the word Archive inside PSU and could only see it as a keyword in Details Panel. Then used ExifTool and looked around the metadata and could only find it in "IPTC-Keywords". After the Write the keywords were gone from Details Panel and also the metadata "IPTC-Keywords" had dissappeared.

Vlad: ... the catalog (metadata) has been merely updated to reflect the change in the file

I still can not see why a WRITE from Catalog to File will cause a change as if a READ had been done.

This is deeper into metadata and synchronise and read/write and preferencies than what is good for my bloodpreasure. But if Vlad is correct ...

It will remove all the keywords for which there are no corresponding labels assigned

... then I am a happy user. This gives me a method to remove a lot of unwanted and orphaned keywords, simply by doing a "Write to file".

Regards, Harald

[vlad]

Vlad: ... the catalog (metadata) has been merely updated to reflect the change in the file

I still can not see why a WRITE from Catalog to File will cause a change as if a READ had been done.

Harold, don't forget that the "Save metadata to file" operation is what we often call the (write-)syncing of the image - the operation ensures the metadata in the file and the metadata in the catalog are synchronized. Afaik, it will (first) update the catalog metadata based on your write sync settings and then save the metadata to the file too. (I guess the first part is not that obvious - it confused me too when I discovered it.) On the contrary, a READ simply updates the catalog data based on what already exists in your file metadata + the read-sync settings.

This gives me a method to remove a lot of unwanted and orphaned keywords, simply by doing a "Write to file".

Just make sure your current catalog (label) structure is the desired one before doing that - once you replace all your current keywords, there's no going back (just in case you have any valuable keywords which haven't made it to the catalog).

Regards,
Vlad

[Mike Buckley]

Mike: I'm confused about why your catalog is being changed, as I'm not understanding the details that exist before and after the change.

Not a lot to say Mike. Before the Write I checked 112 for the word Archive inside PSU and could only see it as a keyword in Details Panel. Then used ExifTool and looked around the metadata and could only find it in "IPTC-Keywords". After the Write the keywords were gone from Details Panel and also the metadata "IPTC-Keywords" had dissappeared.

That being the case, your catalog hasn't changed even though you're saying it has changed (if I understand you correctly). Your catalog did not display the catalog label "Archive" for image 112 before writing to the image file. After writing to the image file, the same was true for your catalog.

[Mike Buckley]

To clarify Vlad's comments about writing, reading and synching...

So long as your Read and Write Keyword Processing settings are configured to "replace," you are synchronizing your catalog and image file. Writing renders your image file consistent with whatever was in your catalog. Reading renders your catalog consistent with whatever was in your image file.

However, when writing to your image file and the Keyword Processing setting is configured to anything other than "replace," you may not be synchronizing the catalog and image file depending on the information that was stored in them before performing the action. Similarly, when reading from your image file and the Keyword Processing setting is configured to anything other than "replace," you may not be synchronizing the catalog and image file for the same reason. So, it's misleading that the Preferences Synchronize Settings section includes settings that in fact may not synchronize your catalog and image file by design.

Indeed, probably all of us are guilty (I certainly am!) of calling any read or write action a synchronization when it's not possible to know whether true synchronization has occurred without knowing all of the settings and, depending on the situation, knowing the differences between the catalog and image file before the read or write action occurred.

I suppose it could be argued, as an example, that a certain degree of synchronization has occurred when writing and the Keyword Processing setting is configured to "merge." In that situation any catalog labels stored in the catalog are then added to the image file. Even so, the information stored in the catalog and image file are not necessarily the same, in which case they aren't in synch in my mind.

[vlad]

Mike, thank you very much for clarifying my comments! Your explanations are excellent - I just have a minor qualification to add:

So, it's misleading that the Preferences Synchronize Settings section includes settings that in fact may not synchronize your catalog and image file by design.

The way I see it, the catalog comprises all the data handled by PSU, including but not limited to labels. While it is true that the labels and the keywords may still differ upon a read or a write (depending on the sync settings), I believe that the Details panel will always reflect the true state of the image metadata (which may or may not include keywords without labels) upon syncing, no matter if it's a read-sync or a write-sync. I may be mistaken, but I thought that's what confused Harold.

Even so the information stored in the catalog and image file are not necessarily the same, in which case they aren't in synch in my mind.

I suggest that the appropriate sync criterion could be that the actual metadata in the file and the catalog metadata displayed by the Details panel are the same. By this token, a read or a write should always bring the metadata in sync, indeed.

[Mike Buckley]

The way I see it, the catalog comprises all the data handled by PSU, including but not limited to labels. While it is true that the labels and the keywords may still differ upon a read or a write (depending on the sync settings), I believe that the Details panel will always reflect the true state of the image metadata (which may or may not include keywords without labels) upon syncing, no matter if it's a read-sync or a write-sync. I may be mistaken, but I thought that's what confused Harold.

Technically speaking, you're probably correct. (I'm far from being an expert on technical considerations.) I always think of the Assign panel's catalog labels as being the information stored in the catalog and the Details panel's keywords as the information stored in the image file. That distinction is important to me even though, technically speaking, the catalog is displaying the keywords in the Details panel as you mention.

EDIT: To take that one step farther, once we make a change to anything having to do with keywords and catalog labels that is displayed by PSU, technically speaking the catalog has changed. That information, unlike the distinction between information displayed in the Details and Assign panels, on its own is not helpful or actionable.

[vlad]

I always think of the Assign panel's catalog labels as being the information stored in the catalog and the Details panel's keywords as the information stored in the image file.

That's exactly how I used to regard it, until I switched auto-(write-)sync off and realized that's not correct (after some initial confusion). The Details panel always displays information in the catalog - that is guaranteed to be the same as the actual metadata in the image file only upon a sync operation. (Obviously, this is transparently achieved whenever auto-(write)-sync is enabled.)

[Mike Buckley]

Vlad,

To take your and my discussion admittedly to the point of absurdity , anyone not writing to the ICS schema never has their catalog and image files in synch. Even when writing to the ICS schema, there are certain situations when the catalog and image files aren't in synch.

[Mike Buckley]

I always think of the Assign panel's catalog labels as being the information stored in the catalog and the Details panel's keywords as the information stored in the image file.

That's exactly how I used to regard it, until I switched auto-(write-)sync off and realized that's not correct (after some initial confusion).

I would be willing to bet that your period of initial confusion was a lot shorter than mine! Practically speaking, now that auto synching is so fast and reliable (not so in IDimager as opposed to PhotoSupreme), I can't think of a reason I would ever want to disable it. Thus, my frame of reference is that auto synching is always enabled.

[vlad]

Practically speaking, now that auto synching is so fast and reliable (not so in IDimager as opposed to PhotoSupreme), I can't think of a reason I would ever want to disable it. Thus, my frame of reference is that auto synching is always enabled.

I think I noticed occasional problems when I was messing around with the catalog while an auto-sync operation was still writing out metadata on a large queue of files. I agree there's probably no reason to disable the auto synching (is that enabled by default?) if the catalog is stable enough and one does not plan on experimenting with various operations or settings.