Best Practice for Version Sets

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gcorbin
Posts: 66
Joined: 21 Aug 06 12:31
Location: Brisbane

Best Practice for Version Sets

Post by gcorbin » 12 Feb 18 21:14

I have been trialing version 4 and so far no issues. I do like the new GUI layout I must say. However, I still have an issue with version sets, the same as I did with version 3 but never made the effort to resolve. I suspect this is to do with how I do things rather than Photo Supreme, but I am not sure.

Rest of post removed as it was confusing and just wrong.
Last edited by gcorbin on 17 Feb 18 11:08, edited 1 time in total.

gcorbin
Posts: 66
Joined: 21 Aug 06 12:31
Location: Brisbane

Re: Best Practice for Version Sets

Post by gcorbin » 17 Feb 18 2:04

Ok. Silence obviously means no one else can be having this issue and is unique to me. I have done some controlled testing and my thoughts above are not true. There are some issues, but it is definitely not due to the file names.

For my test, I copied 4 Raw/JPG photo pairs and 4 non-pairs directly off my camera into a test directory as below.
A.ORF
A.JPG
B.ORF
B.JPG
CORF.ORF
CJPG.JPG
DORF.ORF
DJPG.JPG
E.JPG
F.JPG
G.ORF
H.ORF
I verify the folder structure to import the files with version detection. The images A & B are imported as version sets whereas the remaining images are not identified as version sets as expected.

The first issue is A.JPG and B.JPG have orange sync dots on the thumbnail. A verify folder shows no issues. Reading metadata from file for A.JPG and B.JPG does not clear the out of sync orange dot but a save metadata to file eliminates the orange dot out of sync. A verify folder now shows A.ORF and B.ORF as File Changed. I “Import Data from File” to fix this. Now there is no out of sync orange dots and verify folder shows no issues. This strangeness is common when importing version sets from the camera or folder but I don’t believe I get these issues when importing just JPGs.
I manually create version sets C & D so I have 4 version sets plus 4 non-version sets. So far, so good as everything is in sync and verify folder finds no issues.
Next, I set the headline for all 6 RAW files to “Test”. There are no orange dots but a verify folder shows all 6 ORF files as File Changed. I allow the suggested “Import Data from File” which results in no orange sync dots and verify folder finds no issues. Things are back in sync.

Next I set all ORF files to 3 stars. This also creates no orange dots but verify folder shows all 6 ORF files as File Changed and again, Import Data from File fixes this issue.

Next, I apply labels to the ORF files. These labels cascade to the JPGs of the version sets as expected and everything stays in sync. No issues this time.

Next, I set all JPG files to 2 stars. This creates no sync orange dots but verify folder shows all 6 JPG files as File Changed and again, Import Data from File fixes this issue.

Lastly, I cascade from the 4 ORF files in version sets with all 4 options selected. There are no orange sync dots, but a verify folder shows File Changed for all JPG files in the version set (A.JPG, B.JPG, CJPG.JPG and DJPG.JPG). Doing the suggested “Import Data from File” again results in everything in sync again.

I conclude from this that I have a problem which is not related to RAW, JPG or version sets, but cataloguing generally. I have just compressed my catalogue prior to this test so this should fix any catalogue issues.

My Synchronize settings are:-
Ticked - Automatically write out Catalog changes to the image file
Ticked Write Settings
Only Update out-of-sync image
Write catalog data to IDimager ICS scheme
Write hierarchical keywords
Ticked Read Settings
Read hierarchical keywords
Read IDimager ICS scheme

Any thoughts anyone? Do I have my sync setting wrong or is something else going on here?

sanphotgn
Posts: 429
Joined: 26 Aug 07 18:06

Re: Best Practice for Version Sets

Post by sanphotgn » 17 Feb 18 4:20

In your latest test example ... Are you trying to write directly to the RAW (ORF) file? Or is there an XMP sidecar file?

What are your keyword processing settings for write and read?

Read IDimager ICS scheme should only be enabled when trying to recreate a database.
Photo Supreme 3.3.0.2602 (64 bits) (Windows)

gcorbin
Posts: 66
Joined: 21 Aug 06 12:31
Location: Brisbane

Re: Best Practice for Version Sets

Post by gcorbin » 17 Feb 18 7:00

My Synchronize settings are:-

Ticked - Automatically write out Catalog changes to the image file

Write Settings
Ticked - Only Update out-of-sync image
Unticked - Store metadata to the database only
Unticked - Allow embedded meta writing for RAW files
ticked - Write catalog data to IDimager ICS scheme

Write keywords
Keywords processing - Replace keywords with Catalog labels
Unticked - Store keywords in alphabetical sort order
Unticked - Store synonyms as keywords too
Unticked - Include all parent level labels as keywords
Ticked - Write hierarchical keywords
Unticked - Write delimited keywords

Read Settings
Unticked - Overwrite existing recipes in the Catalog
Unticked - Always convert IPTC keywords to XMP first

Read Keywords
Keywords processing - Merge keywords with existing Catalog labels
GEO Location processing - Up to City Level
Ticked - Read hierarchical keywords
Ticked - Read IDimager ICS scheme
Unticked - Read delimited keywords

sanphotgn
Posts: 429
Joined: 26 Aug 07 18:06

Re: Best Practice for Version Sets

Post by sanphotgn » 17 Feb 18 11:54

gcorbin wrote:
17 Feb 18 7:00
My Synchronize settings are:-

Read Keywords
Ticked - Read IDimager ICS scheme
Untick - Read IDimager ICS scheme

This is only when you want to recreate a database/catalog.

Were XMP files created for the ORF files during your latest test example?
Photo Supreme 3.3.0.2602 (64 bits) (Windows)

gcorbin
Posts: 66
Joined: 21 Aug 06 12:31
Location: Brisbane

Re: Best Practice for Version Sets

Post by gcorbin » 17 Feb 18 12:33

Ok. I have unticked the Read IDimager ICS scheme. XMP files are being created for each RAW (ORF) file.

I repeated the test importing the files as above with the suggested setting change.

After importing, the versions are detected as expected. No images show the orange out of sync dot but verify folder shows B.ORF is File Changed. Import Data from File fixes this sync issue.

I manually made the version sets for C & D images. Everything is in sync.

Next, I set the headline for all 6 RAW files to “Test”. There are no orange dots but a verify folder shows all 6 ORF files as File Changed. I allow the suggested “Import Data from File” which results in no orange sync dots and verify folder finds no issues. Things are back in sync.

Next I set all ORF files to 3 stars. This also creates no orange dots but verify folder shows all 6 ORF files as File Changed and again, Import Data from File fixes this issue.

Next, I apply labels to the ORF files. These labels cascade to the JPGs of the version sets as expected and everything stays in sync. No issues this time.

Next, I set all JPG files to 2 stars. This creates no sync orange dots but verify folder shows all 6 JPG files as File Changed and again, Import Data from File fixes this issue.

Lastly, I cascade from the 4 ORF files in version sets with all 4 options selected. There are no orange sync dots, but a verify folder shows File Changed for all JPG files in the version set (A.JPG, B.JPG, CJPG.JPG and DJPG.JPG). Doing the suggested “Import Data from File” again results in everything in sync again.

This test got a different sync issue with the original import, but the sync issue after any cataloguing are exactly the same.

Any other suggestions on what to try?

sanphotgn
Posts: 429
Joined: 26 Aug 07 18:06

Re: Best Practice for Version Sets

Post by sanphotgn » 17 Feb 18 14:04

If everything is being shown as in sync - no orange dots, Out of Sync state shows 0 - why use Verify Folder? Was it a case you were seeing out of sync images, used Verify Folder, and then out of curiosity tried Verify Folder when everything appeared to be in sync? :)

I don't have time right now to do a good test. However, a quick test, using the Run Script from Repository - Cascade ..., cascaded everything, no indicators appeared to show an out of sync, but Verify Folder did indicate the NEF (via XMP) needed to have data imported.

This is with Windows 7. Version 4 of PSU - not the server version. Local drives.
Photo Supreme 3.3.0.2602 (64 bits) (Windows)

jstartin
Posts: 423
Joined: 23 Aug 06 13:47
Location: UK

Re: Best Practice for Version Sets

Post by jstartin » 17 Feb 18 23:45

I am not completely sure, but I think I am right in saying that 'Out of sync' means 'could be out of sync'. PSu does not make a detailed comparison of metadata in XMP and in the catalog, it looks at date and time stamps etc for last changes and checks whether they are the same. If they are not it is quite possible they are the only things that differ.

If things are in-sync you can rely on it, if they are out of sync, you have to consider whether that matters. For many users it probably does not matter very much if some images are out of sync for a period unless they are about to rely on keywords and other metadata being passed on to some other application via the XMP. Personally I just use the 'sync all out of sync images' menu item now and again, and especially when I know it will matter.

'File changed' on verification is triggered differently. During verification some sort of 'fingerprint' hash value is calculated and stored for each file. If subsequent verifications come up with a different fingerprint then the file has changed. It is up to the user to decide whether to ignore this and reset the fingerprint or reimport data from the file. You need to think about what has caused a change. If you set 2 stars and have the catalog metadata written to the file then the file and catalog should remain in sync but the file WILL have changed.
Jim (Photo Supreme: AMD Quad-Core A8-5500 Accelerated Processor 3.2 GHz; internal AMD Radeon™ HD7560D; 4GB DDR3 SDRAM; Win10x64)

sanphotgn
Posts: 429
Joined: 26 Aug 07 18:06

Re: Best Practice for Version Sets

Post by sanphotgn » 18 Feb 18 19:01

jstartin - thank you for the info.
jstartin wrote:
17 Feb 18 23:45
I am not completely sure, but I think I am right in saying that 'Out of sync' means 'could be out of sync'.
Your info reminded me of another post regarding 'could be out of sync': viewtopic.php?f=57&t=24835&p=115326

There might be a few other discussions. I thought there was one where some thought it was an graphical interface refresh / timing issue. Or maybe that was my conclusion after reading the above post.

I have experienced the orange dot after import or after several quick changes to metadata via the Assign and Details panels.
jstartin wrote:
17 Feb 18 23:45
Personally I just use the 'sync all out of sync images' menu item now and again, and especially when I know it will matter.
For some reason I don't think of this solution. Thanks for the reminder.
jstartin wrote:
17 Feb 18 23:45
'File changed' on verification is triggered differently. During verification some sort of 'fingerprint' hash value is calculated and stored for each file. If subsequent verifications come up with a different fingerprint then the file has changed. It is up to the user to decide whether to ignore this and reset the fingerprint or reimport data from the file. You need to think about what has caused a change. If you set 2 stars and have the catalog metadata written to the file then the file and catalog should remain in sync but the file WILL have changed.
I would think the fingerprint hash value is calculated each time the file is recreated. Thus, I set 2 stars. PSU automatically updates (recreates the file) based on my Preferences. PSU creates the fingerprint hash value. In sync. If I ran Verify Folder, I would not see any changes.

In my very limited not very good test to try to replicate gcorbin's situation: Only the NEF appeared, even though the JPG had also changed. Thus, why did the fingerprint hash value work for the JPG (nothing was shown out of sync), but did not work for the NEF?

I typically verify folders, because I do make some metadata changes outside of PSU. Only those files with changes appear. In other words, I am not seeing several files where I only made updates in PSU.

As a test ... I will use Verify Folder after every step of my workflow and report back.
Photo Supreme 3.3.0.2602 (64 bits) (Windows)

gcorbin
Posts: 66
Joined: 21 Aug 06 12:31
Location: Brisbane

Re: Best Practice for Version Sets

Post by gcorbin » 21 Feb 18 12:16

Ok. Thanks for your responses everyone. I will try to ignore the out of sync indicators.

sanphotgn
Posts: 429
Joined: 26 Aug 07 18:06

Re: Best Practice for Version Sets

Post by sanphotgn » 22 Feb 18 22:16

gcorbin wrote:
21 Feb 18 12:16
I will try to ignore the out of sync indicators.
I don't think you should ignore them. I don't. Especially, if you are changing metadata outside of PSU. For example, you make a bunch of changes in PSU, PSU displays out of sync indicators, you ignore them, you import / sync the file with another program outside of PSU, you make changes to the metadata in that program, you return to PSU and use Verify Folder in PSU to bring in the changes made in the other program, and your initial PSU changes do not exist. Reason: The out of sync indicators were correct and the data hadn't been written to the file.

In regards to Verify Folder finding items that should be in sync ... I conducted one test, with V3, no versions. What I found: Import. Nothing out of sync. Verify Folder showed the files I had just imported. I did nothing. Applied one internal label (only written to the database). Nothing out of sync. Verify folder showed the files I had just imported. I did nothing. Assigned labels and entered metadata. Nothing out of sync. Verify Folder reported no changes found. I will conduct the same test with RAW/JPG out of the camera and report.
Photo Supreme 3.3.0.2602 (64 bits) (Windows)

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