Custom XMP in Info vs Details Panel?

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fbungarz
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Re: Custom XMP in Info vs Details Panel?

Post by fbungarz » 02 Jun 15 8:13

It works semi-automatically selecting all files of a kind and assigning the placeholder the way Mike Buckley explained it:
Once the files are versioned, hover over each of the version tabs. You'll see various menu items. The menu items displayed on the Main Version tab are different than the menu items displayed on the Sub-version tabs. More specific to your question, hovering over a Sub-version tab displays the placeholders. Hovering over a placeholder displays the name of the placeholder. Clicking a placeholder automatically assigns that placeholder to the selected thumbnail(s).
However, as I said: doing this for hundreds of folders is quite arduous.

vlad
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Re: Custom XMP in Info vs Details Panel?

Post by vlad » 02 Jun 15 8:19

Why do you have to do it (seperately) for hundreds of folders? Why can't you select all NEF files in the catalog -> assign the Original placeholder, then do the same for all the DNG files?

fbungarz
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Re: Custom XMP in Info vs Details Panel?

Post by fbungarz » 02 Jun 15 8:36

Why do you have to do it (seperately) for hundreds of folders? Why can't you select all NEF files in the catalog -> assign the Original placeholder, then do the same for all the DNG files?
Given how "buggy" my experience has so far been I am not too well on approximately a third of all 80,000 images. That would require selecting ca. 20,000 images in one go and applying the custom placeholder. I am not too sure that will work well. But you are right, perhaps doing it on larger batches might work. Ideal would be a script, though that I can ran as a batch during import.

vlad
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Re: Custom XMP in Info vs Details Panel?

Post by vlad » 02 Jun 15 11:00

I don't think it's possible to run a script during importing. You could apply a batch, but I don't know if you could create one for versioning purposes.

How many top folders do you have? What about 2nd level folders? Couldn't you use one of those folder levels to identify suitable (not too many, not too big) batches of files to work on?

fbungarz
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Re: Custom XMP in Info vs Details Panel?

Post by fbungarz » 02 Jun 15 11:17

I don't think it's possible to run a script during importing.
You cannot be serious? How will I be able to use PSU to download/import new images, renaming them automatically (pre-script), convert them to DNGs (post-script), mirroring the files to a backup after download, etc., etc.? That all works perfectly in IDI. I assumed you'd be able to do that easily in PSU using the batch command? I admit I have not looked into that yet, but you saying one cannot run scripts during import? Really? This must be possible running a batch command!
How many top folders do you have? What about 2nd level folders?
Hard to say how many. I need to look into that. This might be an option...

vlad
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Re: Custom XMP in Info vs Details Panel?

Post by vlad » 02 Jun 15 11:41

Frank, I don't think there's any reason to panic. All I meant was that you could not plug a programming script (written using the Photo Supreme API) into the import profile. You could still apply a command batch.

vlad
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Re: Custom XMP in Info vs Details Panel?

Post by vlad » 02 Jun 15 11:58

Frank, I think I've got a fresh idea for you - and I'm cautiously optimistic it might save you lots of work! Will write back in a couple of hours, as I'm rushing to a meeting right now.

vlad
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Re: Custom XMP in Info vs Details Panel?

Post by vlad » 02 Jun 15 16:30

Ok Frank, I have devised a workflow for you to try:

01. Turn both ICS reading off and ICS writing off
02. Import all images with versioning disabled
03. Create a new custom field for ics:VersionPlaceHolders
04. Define a private label called Original and map it to ics:VersionPlaceHolders
05. Define a private label called Digital Negative and map it to ics:VersionPlaceHolders
06. Select all NEF files and assign them the Original label
07. Select all DNG files and assign them the Digital Negative label
08. Save Metadata to File (Ctrl+S) for all NEF and DNG files
09. Discard the current catalog and create a brand new catalog
10. Turn ICS reading on
11. Reimport all images (leave versioning disabled in the import profile)
12. Turn ICS reading off and ICS writing on (recommended settings)

In the first stage the aim of the workflow is to simply insert the version place holders missing from the ICS metadata previously saved by IDI. In the second stage, you would make use of the complete ICS info, including the version placeholders. Does that work for you?

N.B.:
a) Disabling the (automatic) writing of ICS in step 1 seems to be essential for the label mappings to actually be applied.
b) For obvious reasons, I'd recommend to first try out the above workflow on a small number of files - which you backed up in advance, of course.

fbungarz
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Re: Custom XMP in Info vs Details Panel?

Post by fbungarz » 02 Jun 15 17:00

Hi Vlad,
that could be a strategy that works. I'll experiment and report back.
Thanks,
Frank

fbungarz
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Re: Custom XMP in Info vs Details Panel?

Post by fbungarz » 02 Jun 15 20:20

It does not work.
I created the label "Original" and mapped it to ics:VersionPlaceHolders. Assigning the label does NOT write the word "Original" into the ICS field.

vlad
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Re: Custom XMP in Info vs Details Panel?

Post by vlad » 02 Jun 15 21:29

It writes it for me. Please check:

1) Do you have ICS writing turned off?
2) Did you sync the file that you're looking at?
3) If you look in the Info panel, is Version Place Holders still empty?

fbungarz
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Re: Custom XMP in Info vs Details Panel?

Post by fbungarz » 02 Jun 15 21:40

OK, this now becomes very, very strange...

(1) I turned ICS reading AND Writing off.
(2) Imported with versioning off.
(3) In the Info Panel the custom field ices:VersionPlaceHolder now suddenly contains the correct placeholder names: For the NEF the word "Original" appears, for the DNG the word "Digital Negative" appears!

This means: the files do contain the ICS tag and what I had previously assumed, i.e., that IDI did not write these tags must be false, where else would these entries come from?

But it becomes even weirder...

The files contain the ics placeholder tags , but they are obviously NOT versioned. Running Version detection with "automatically write catalog changes to the image file" turned on deletes the ics placeholder tags from the files, but correctly assigns DNG and NEF as subversions to the JPG. Running Version detection with "automatically write catalog changes to the image file" turned off deletes the the ics placeholder tags from the files, but correctly assigns DNG and NEF as subversions to the JPG AND correctly assigns the PSU database placeholders to the files!
Well, this last part does not make sense, right?

Funnily enough it does make sense:
Whether a version has a placeholder assigned, and which particular one, is stored in the PSU database. In the catalog one can browse the version placeholders and find the images assigned to that placeholder.
Normally that placeholder is stored in the image file (if ICS writing is turned on).
Versioning apparently reads the ICS placeholder tags from the file but also assigns placeholders according to the preferences.
In my case the two are in conflict: The ICS says this file has placeholder "Original" and the rule from preferences says it should get the placeholder "Original" assigned. The result is: running version detection the placeholder gets assigned in the database and removed from the file. With autosync switched on PSU then recognizes that the ICS tag is no longer present in the file and thus also removes it from the database. With autosync off PSU shows the image assigned to the placeholder in the catalog, but in the Image Info Panel displays that the tag is no longer present in the image itself.

Here a screenshot that shows images with their placeholders assigned (the custom thumb info displays which placeholder the image is assigned to, the yellow background means this is the main version, the green background stands for a subversion and the text displays says which subversion):
Discrepancy_PSU_ICS.jpg
Discrepancy_PSU_ICS.jpg (152.2 KiB) Viewed 2674 times
And here straight after the import, but before any versioning:
Discrepancy_PSU_ICS_2.jpg
Discrepancy_PSU_ICS_2.jpg (122.42 KiB) Viewed 2674 times
Does this make sense? I think so.

Now, as the next step I have tried turning ICS on and then writing the metadata to the file (CTRL+S). If I am correct the version placeholder, which is now present in the PSU database gets written to the file again and should show up there.
And it does:
Discrepancy_PSU_ICS_3.jpg
Discrepancy_PSU_ICS_3.jpg (145.95 KiB) Viewed 2674 times
Well, now I understand why the placeholders did not get assigned and were apparently "randomly" removed. I guess, I could repeat these steps to get the placeholders correctly assigned, but it is an even more umbersome process than anticipated before, because I will have to keep swichting autosync on and off, turn ICS read and write on and off, run the version detection, and save the metadata to the file...

I guess I will have to do a bit more testing to figure out the exact workflow how to make this work...

vlad
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Re: Custom XMP in Info vs Details Panel?

Post by vlad » 02 Jun 15 22:52

fbungarz wrote: This means: the files do contain the ICS tag and what I had previously assumed, i.e., that IDI did not write these tags must be false, where else would these entries come from?
Hahaha, 20 or 30 posts back you assured me that you didn't have the placeholder tags in your images...! Virtually all my recent attempts to help you were based on that assurance... :!:
The files contain the ics placeholder tags , but they are obviously NOT versioned.
If you imported them with ICS reading off, that obviously makes sense. But, if the ics placeholder tags are there (as you've just concofirmed), why would you import the images with ICS reading disabled? (I was suggesting that only as a prerequisite for the step to generate the placeholder tags, without any side effects.)
Versioning apparently reads the ICS placeholder tags from the file but also assigns placeholders according to the preferences.
That matches my expectations. But you may not need to run versioning at all: you ought to enable ICS reading instead.
In my case the two are in conflict: The ICS says this file has placeholder "Original" and the rule from preferences says it should get the placeholder "Original" assigned.

That's not a conflict.
Well, now I understand why the placeholders did not get assigned and were apparently "randomly" removed.
Could you summarize why?
I guess, I could repeat these steps to get the placeholders correctly assigned, but it is an even more umbersome process than anticipated before, because I will have to keep swichting autosync on and off, turn ICS read and write on and off, run the version detection, and save the metadata to the file...
I doubt you have to do all of these. Why don't you step back and try something simpler first:

1) Start with a new catalog
2) Turn auto-sync off and ICS reading on. (However, I would leave ICS writing disabled for now.)
3) Import images (leave versioning disabled)
4) Are the images versioned correctly (without running any version detection), including the right placeholders?

If yes, then that's virtually your workflow right there. If not, please explain if any version set was created and what exactly is the mismatch with the desired state. Also, try to manually sync and see if that helps.
I guess I will have to do a bit more testing to figure out the exact workflow how to make this work...
Good luck!

fbungarz
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Re: Custom XMP in Info vs Details Panel?

Post by fbungarz » 03 Jun 15 7:12

Hi Vlad,
yes, I THOUGHT the tags were NOT there because despite ICS reading on they did not show. But the flaw was ICS writing turned on in combination with auto-sync. I can now only conclude that this overwrites the existing ICS tags during import. If I turn both autosync AND ICS writing off the tags are NOT the there.
I tried creating a new database and importing with ICS on and both autosync AND ICS writing off .
The tags are read, the files are versioned the placeholders are MISSINg.
So, no progress there. Something is still not working.
Frank

vlad
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Re: Custom XMP in Info vs Details Panel?

Post by vlad » 03 Jun 15 8:33

fbungarz wrote:Hi Vlad,
yes, I THOUGHT the tags were NOT there because despite ICS reading on they did not show. But the flaw was ICS writing turned on in combination with auto-sync. I can now only conclude that this overwrites the existing ICS tags during import.
Puzzling and flawed as it may be, that behavior is at least consistent with the buggy experience you've reported bellow. The ICS writing always (re)writes the ICS tags from scratch (as opposed to incrementally), therefore if the sub-versions created upon ICS reading lose their placeholders in the catalog, then that state will be mirrored to the physical files on (auto-)syncing.

Lessons to learn from this:

- When in doubt, it is worth checking the metadata with an external program, such as ExifTool.
- When you want to be in control or better understand what's going on, it is recommended to disable the automatic write-syncing. (As a matter of fact, that's the reason I have this option disabled - and I should have advised you to do the same for now.)
- ICS writing on is generally recommended, but not during those special sessions when you attempt to recreate a catalog state based on ICS reading. (Btw, this use case lends additional support to Hert's decision of leaving ICS disabled by default, although recommended.)
If I turn both autosync AND ICS writing off the tags are NOT the there.
I tried creating a new database and importing with ICS on and both autosync AND ICS writing off .
The tags are read, the files are versioned the placeholders are MISSINg.
I would certainly report this in Mantis. Basically, you are saying that the ICS reading ignores the version placeholders altogether, right? (Undesired side effect: having both ICS reading and writing on also obliterates them from files upon syncing.)
So, no progress there. Something is still not working.
I think there's been a lot of progress regarding the understanding of what's going on. To move on with your practical problem:

If you now run the version detection, do you still get inconsistent results? Does that happen even if you import the images with all the discussed options disabled, including the ICS reading?

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