rotated raw files not displayed correctly in photo editors

fbungarz
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rotated raw files not displayed correctly in photo editors

Post by fbungarz » 31 Aug 21 1:13

Hi Hert,
it is helpful to be able to rotate images in Photo Supreme and if I then open the JPGs in Photoshop they are displayed the same way I rotated them in PhotoSupreme.
For some reason that is not the case, if I open raw files (NEF or DNG) - they are displayed the way they were originally ingested by Photo Supreme. This is quite annoying, especially If I then rotate and the raw file and save it a JPG print version and add it via find missing files to Photo Supreme. Now, back in PhotoSupreme the edited image is displayed correctly as a thumbnail, but if I open it in the image viewer, it is displayed as rotated...

Here is what happens:
(1) shoot image on macro table upside-down
(2) import into PhotoSupreme
(3) rotate in PhotoSupreme 2x 90° clockwise
(4) export NEF to PhotoLab
(5) PhotoLab displays the image still as not rotated (i.e., upside-down)
(6) Rotate image 2x 90° clockwise in PhotoLab
(7) edit the image in PhotoLab
(8) export the image as JPG in PhotoLab with suffix _print
(9) verify folders for files in PhotoSupreme adds the _print file and creates a correctly oriented thumbnail
(10) dounle-click in PhotoSupreme displays the image as upside-down

Only way to fix this: rotate the images again in PhotoSupreme and rebuild all thumbnails...

Why is this happening???

Thanks,
Frank

Hert
Posts: 6980
Joined: 13 Sep 03 7:24

Re: rotated raw files not displayed correctly in photo editors

Post by Hert » 31 Aug 21 8:39

From how you describe it, PhotoLab isn't using the rotation setting that is in the XMP. Only that explains why opening the file presents you with an unrotated image. And when you then rotate the image in Photolab then it should also update the rotation tag in the metadata (Exif *and* XMP).

Report this to them.
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fbungarz
Posts: 1706
Joined: 08 Dec 06 5:03
Location: Arizona, USA

Re: rotated raw files not displayed correctly in photo editors

Post by fbungarz » 31 Aug 21 16:22

Hhhm - I really don't think this is a PhotoLab error, because it also happens in Photoshop and Affinity Photo. It seems very unlikely to me that all three software products from different vendors ignore the XMP rotation tags. And curiously enough it only affects the RAW files - not the DNGs !!!

Again:
I import the images into PhotoSuprem first. They are all upside-down, the way the camera shoots them mounted on the macro table.
In PhotoSupreme, I then rotate the triplet of JPG+NEF+DNG twice by 90° clockwise, so that the images are correctly oriented.

If I open the JPG in Photoshop, Affinity or PhotoLab everything is fine, the images are correctly oriented, not upside-down.
If I open a NEF or DNG either in Photoshop, Affinity or PhotoLab, images are upside-down. If I develop the images with Photoshop, Affinity or PhotoLab and save them as JPGs, then import the JPGs in PhotoSupreme, the thumbnails are correctly oriented, but in the PSU's light table and Image editor the images appear upside-down (actually the preview is correctly oriented, but as soon as the full size image from the raw is loaded the images are upside-down).

To me that clearly indicates that PhotoSupreme is the culprit here. It seems that PSu is not rotating the full-size RAW image, but only the preview embedded in the RAW files.
So, my question: is there any way that PhotoSupreme updates the rotation tag in both the raw file previews and the actual full size image.

fbungarz
Posts: 1706
Joined: 08 Dec 06 5:03
Location: Arizona, USA

Re: rotated raw files not displayed correctly in photo editors

Post by fbungarz » 31 Aug 21 16:37

(1) I open the images in Photoshop/Affinity/PhotoLab, all upside-down, here:
NEF_Photoshop_upside-down.jpg
NEF_Photoshop_upside-down.jpg (159.28 KiB) Viewed 463 times
NEF_PhotoLab_upside-down.jpg
NEF_PhotoLab_upside-down.jpg (227.72 KiB) Viewed 463 times
NEF_Affinity_upside-down.jpg
NEF_Affinity_upside-down.jpg (160.78 KiB) Viewed 463 times
(2) I develop the images in Photoshop/Affinity/PhotoLab (including rotating the images), save them as new JPG with the suffix "_print" and import them into PhotoSupreme.

(3) The thumbnail of the imported "_print" version appears correctly oriented, not upside-down:
Thumbnail_imported-print-version_not-upside-down.jpg
Thumbnail_imported-print-version_not-upside-down.jpg (125.76 KiB) Viewed 463 times
(4) I look at the files in the PhotoSupreme's Light Table, the newly imported "_print" is upside down:
LightTable_imported-print-version_upside-down.jpg
LightTable_imported-print-version_upside-down.jpg (244.82 KiB) Viewed 463 times


Hert
Posts: 6980
Joined: 13 Sep 03 7:24

Re: rotated raw files not displayed correctly in photo editors

Post by Hert » 03 Sep 21 3:24

Right click->Metadata->Convert metadata to XMP

That will fix any mess other tools created and line up metadata at all levels (Exif/IPTC/XMP). After that rebuild the thumb.
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fbungarz
Posts: 1706
Joined: 08 Dec 06 5:03
Location: Arizona, USA

Re: rotated raw files not displayed correctly in photo editors

Post by fbungarz » 03 Sep 21 20:35

It doesn't fix the mess that PhotoSupreme made !!!
Sorry - but I tried to explain:
I rotate a DNG in Photo Supreme and open it in Photoshop, Affinity, or PhotoLab. They ALL open the file upside-down despite PhotoSupreme showing that file at the correct orientation (after having it rotated inside PhotoSupreme).
So, it is clearly that rotating the file inside PhotoSupreme that is NOT working.
I can "Right click->Metadata->Convert metadata to XMP" on these images and "rebuild thumbs" all day long and in Photoshop/Affinity/PhotoLab they still do NOT open in the orientation that PhotoSupreme displays them (see the screenshots).

So - I have no idea how to fix this. Sorry. That did not happen before. Before, in external editors images would always open in the same orientation that PhotoSupreme displays them.

Hert
Posts: 6980
Joined: 13 Sep 03 7:24

Re: rotated raw files not displayed correctly in photo editors

Post by Hert » 03 Sep 21 20:54

Psu changes the orientation tag in XMP. You can easily verify that.

You stated that you rotate in a third party tool. Back in psu you should use the convert metadata to XMP.
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fbungarz
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Joined: 08 Dec 06 5:03
Location: Arizona, USA

Re: rotated raw files not displayed correctly in photo editors

Post by fbungarz » 03 Sep 21 22:56

You stated that you rotate in a third party tool. Back in psu you should use the convert metadata to XMP.
NO !!
I did not rotate outside PSU, that is my whole point !!!
I rotated INSIDE PSU and when opening in external editor the images are all wrong.
After import I always rotate the images manually in PSU. I have rotation in camera disabled. So, I typically have to adjust portraits by 90°.
But these are all from a copy stand and upside down, so need to be rotated by 180°, which I did after import.
The JPGs all open correctly in external editors. But the DNGs and NEFs open as if they were never rotated at all.

SO, again, rotating INSIDE PSU, not opening correctly in external Editor.
Last edited by fbungarz on 03 Sep 21 23:34, edited 1 time in total.

G8DHE
Posts: 325
Joined: 21 Aug 17 13:58

Re: rotated raw files not displayed correctly in photo editors

Post by G8DHE » 03 Sep 21 23:14

There are certainly oddities, in my case using Nikon utilities or Widows utilities both the NEF and JPG files for an image in portrait show the correct orientation on the un-altered files. However in PSU the NEF file alone is NOT rotated at all and displays as in landscape. I haven't yet tried altering rotations. Will do once I get a chance!
Geoff Mather (G8DHE)

Hert
Posts: 6980
Joined: 13 Sep 03 7:24

Re: rotated raw files not displayed correctly in photo editors

Post by Hert » 04 Sep 21 5:56

Check your orientation tags. There’s one in XMP, there’s one in Exif.
Some tools check one, some check the other, some check both, some check none. Of course there are oddities if one tool updates something and another tool doesn’t read it.

Check your orientation tag after rotating in psu. Psu updates it (assuming you rotate from the thumb). If Psu updates the XMP orientation for RAW then all is fine.
What other tools do is out of psu’s control. If another tool doesn’t read the changed orientation then you can shout whatever you want but that won’t change what another tool does.

So, please tell me what the orientation tag is before rotating in psu, and what it is after rotating.

Don’t shout: that violates the forum rules
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fbungarz
Posts: 1706
Joined: 08 Dec 06 5:03
Location: Arizona, USA

Re: rotated raw files not displayed correctly in photo editors

Post by fbungarz » 07 Sep 21 18:04

Dear Hert,
sorry, my intention was not to shout, but to emphasize. I will use Italics next time...
Again, I have only rotated the images inside PhotoSupreme, not with any external tool. The JPGs rotate correctly, the NEFs and DNGs don't.
How can I compare the Exif Tag with the XMP Tag?

I have just looked at the Technical section in PhotoSupreme. For both the JPG and the NEF PhotoSupreme reports the Orientation as "Normal". For the DNG the technical section is empty, no Orientation reported. I assume that Technical section in PhotoSupreme refers to the XMP?

Looking at the files in ExifTool, it reports the ExifData of all three files, even the DNG, as set to "Horizontal (Normal)".

Now, even though all three files seem to have the same Orientation Tag embedded, both the NEF and DNG open upside-down in all my external editors, only the JPG opens correctly.

Perhaps I could send you the files? I really have no idea how to fix this.

Thanks,
Frank

fbungarz
Posts: 1706
Joined: 08 Dec 06 5:03
Location: Arizona, USA

Re: rotated raw files not displayed correctly in photo editors

Post by fbungarz » 07 Sep 21 18:10

Here the DNG in PhotoSupreme:
DNG_no-orientation.jpg
DNG_no-orientation.jpg (203.2 KiB) Viewed 241 times
... and the JPG:
JPG_normal-orientation.jpg
JPG_normal-orientation.jpg (202.86 KiB) Viewed 241 times
... and the NEF:
NEF_normal-orientation.jpg
NEF_normal-orientation.jpg (199.54 KiB) Viewed 241 times
And the DNG in ExifTool:
Exif-Tool_DNG_normal-orientation.jpg
Exif-Tool_DNG_normal-orientation.jpg (217.76 KiB) Viewed 241 times

Hert
Posts: 6980
Joined: 13 Sep 03 7:24

Re: rotated raw files not displayed correctly in photo editors

Post by Hert » 07 Sep 21 22:38

And what is the orientation tag after rotating in psu?
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fbungarz
Posts: 1706
Joined: 08 Dec 06 5:03
Location: Arizona, USA

Re: rotated raw files not displayed correctly in photo editors

Post by fbungarz » 08 Sep 21 0:10

This is after rotating in PSu...
The original file is captured upside-down on the macro table, imported into PSu and then rotated.
Frank

PS: Since today, whenever I want to access or post anything on the forum here I am constantly asked to log back in again (despite having the option checked to remember me)...

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