Tiny PSu system font size in v4

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Stephen
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Tiny PSu system font size in v4

Post by Stephen » 28 Jan 19 21:16

I have just upgraded from v3 to v4. I have not yet entered the registration code, but I doubt whether makes a difference.

The system font used on the right hand size of the screen is tiny and very difficult to read and work with, even on my large monitor (EIZO 1920 x 1200). :( The fonts of the categories on the left hand side of the screen are larger, possibly by 1 or 2 point sizes, which makes quite a difference in usability.

Here is a composite screen shot showing both sides of the screen. The height of the screen on a laptop is 20cm. If you change your browser to that size you will see what I mean.

PreviewScreenSnapz100 - 20cm high.jpg
PreviewScreenSnapz100 - 20cm high.jpg (526.69 KiB) Viewed 857 times
Last edited by Stephen on 30 Jan 19 23:18, edited 1 time in total.
Never say never change, but using Mac since 2005. Photo Supreme 3.3.0.2605. I endorse the interoperability of files between applications and systems.

Hert
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Re: Tiny PSu system font size in v4

Post by Hert » 28 Jan 19 21:54

There is a minor font size difference between Categories and Details but up to now nobody reported this as problematic (not even mentioned by Windows nor Mac users).

Maybe you could increase the scaling in macOS Display preferences a little bit.
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Tappari
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Re: Tiny PSu system font size in v4

Post by Tappari » 30 Jan 19 12:47

For my old eyes too is the font on left hand side panel (All etc.) acceptable but on right side panel (Details) too tiny (on my 27" @2560x1440 monitor, Win 10).

Stephen
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Re: Tiny PSu system font size in v4

Post by Stephen » 30 Jan 19 20:07

Just for comparison, the shot on the left ist v3 and the shot on the right is v4.

v3 had a bolder text which was more legible. Perhaps that was the only difference or just 1 point size, I'm not sure. Anyway the v4 font is too small (or thin) for me, even on a large monitor. The difference 'might' not be so noticeable if it were black text on a white background because the eyes interpret black on white much differently to white on black. This statement is backed by research which proves that advertisements using reverse text, i.e. white on black are read less frequently that black on white.

However, for this purpose, white on black is obviously better due to reduced eye strain.

If any detectives here wonder why the v4 shot was taken before the v3 shot, that's because as a consequence I've reverted to using v3.

PreviewScreenSnapz100.jpg
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Never say never change, but using Mac since 2005. Photo Supreme 3.3.0.2605. I endorse the interoperability of files between applications and systems.

andrew.heard
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Re: Tiny PSu system font size in v4

Post by andrew.heard » 30 Jan 19 22:40

Hert wrote:
28 Jan 19 21:54
but up to now nobody reported this as problematic (not even mentioned by Windows nor Mac users).
I'm using Windows 10 with a 1280x1024 monitor. I preferred the V3 font too - as noted - slightly more readable. It's not a bug or something I'd generally comment on, but please don't assume a lack of report implies support for such a change..

Hert
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Re: Tiny PSu system font size in v4

Post by Hert » 31 Jan 19 11:06

Fonts and sizes did not change between V3 and V4, Andrew. Not on Windows.

V4 on macOS is 64 bit and is built on Apple’s Cocoa framework where V3 on macOS is 32 bit and built on Apple’s old Carbon framework.
What Stephen sees is the rendering difference between Carbon (V3) and the same fonts rendering on Cocoa (V4). If you study the side-by-side screenshot you’ll see that sizes are no different between V3 and V4. What is different is that Carbon draws fonts less “sharp/crisp” almost bulky.
FYI, Carbon is 32 bit only and Apple forces all software to move to 64 bit with Cocoa. Carbon applications, as well as 32 bit Cocoa applications will no longer run on the first next macOS release. That’s how Apple forces their platform to stay current.
Windows should do the same and ban 32 bit completely.
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Stephen
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Re: Tiny PSu system font size in v4

Post by Stephen » 31 Jan 19 18:15

Hert wrote:
31 Jan 19 11:06
What is different is that Carbon draws fonts less “sharp/crisp” almost bulky.
That is true and I posted a street shot of a screen shot (which is even fuzzier), so that I could show both side-by-side.

However, as a result the new rendering makes the font harder to read and impossible under less than ideal conditions, i.e. sunlight. I would like to use v4, but my test was unconvincing that it would be practical on a daily basis.

Perhaps it would be possible to change the font to bold for the Mac version? A bold font typically does not increase the length of the text by much, as it usually reduces the kerning (inter-character spacing). This should not have much effect on available screen 'real estate'. If the 'bulky' font didn't worry users under v3, then it will surely not worry them under v4.

If that is not possible then perhaps user customisable fields would be possible? This is currently used for 'Custom Thumb Info' (see screen shot):

Photo SupremeScreenSnapz207.jpg
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Never say never change, but using Mac since 2005. Photo Supreme 3.3.0.2605. I endorse the interoperability of files between applications and systems.

Username
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Re: Tiny PSu system font size in v4

Post by Username » 31 Jan 19 22:25

When defining font size on Mac client I’ve found that a fixed size, let’s say 9, is rendered with different size on retina screens va non-retina ones.
So I dropped the size definition so my custom thumb info looks the same on my EIZOs as they do on my retina MBP.
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Stephen
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Re: Tiny PSu system font size in v4

Post by Stephen » 31 Jan 19 23:14

Username wrote:
31 Jan 19 22:25
When defining font size on Mac client I’ve found that a fixed size, let’s say 9, is rendered with different size on retina screens va non-retina ones.
So I dropped the size definition so my custom thumb info looks the same on my EIZOs as they do on my retina MBP.
Thanks, but that is known. This thread concerns the system font size in the right-hand column, not the easily variable font size in the custom thumb.
Never say never change, but using Mac since 2005. Photo Supreme 3.3.0.2605. I endorse the interoperability of files between applications and systems.

fbungarz
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Re: Tiny PSu system font size in v4

Post by fbungarz » 01 Feb 19 1:06

This is not just a Mac Issue. It is the same/similar on Windows. In version 4 the font is much less crisp and as a result less legible (and, yes, I did notice and report it and Hert made some adjustments so legibility is now improved, but still not as perfect as in version 4).
I had assumed this had to do with different font-scaling due to high-res monitor support. Upgrading to version 4 on the same monitor (and 64bit Windows) I had to use a different font size for the custom thumb captions, else they would be rendered so minute that they became essentially illegible.
No idea, why this is so difficult to get just right. I must have how many programs running on my computer and only PSU has these slightly fuzzy fonts. And both Photoshop and Affinity use mostly dark background with white fonts too. And both render the fonts perfectly legible and crisp. Way back I reported another nuisance: the kind of font that PSu uses makes spaces really difficult to discern. Is there a space or not between two words in Image Details. Most of the time I don't really know. It is often very difficult to discern. I have know idea, why PSU uses Trebuchet. Looks nice, perhaps. But for me legibility would be a priority...

[Only tangentially related: Obviously I am no expert and I just found another good reason NOT to ever buy a Mac! Those guys forcing down their operating system down your throat and abandoning 32-bit support. Yikes! Like: oh, you can't drive your old car anymore, just buy a new one, throw the old one away. Technological innovation is great, but I am getting sick and tired of manufactures forcing users to buy new hardware just because...].

Stephen
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Re: Tiny PSu system font size in v4

Post by Stephen » 01 Feb 19 1:28

Thanks Frank.

BTW, there is a mixup in your comment, unless Windows is different to Mac. The (only very slightly) fuzzy font on the Mac is with PSu v3, which I am now using again, having tried v4 for 60 minutes and then downgrading again. The font in v4 does appear sharper, but it's too thin & hard to read and would tire your eyes quickly if you use it for long periods. The fuzziness doesn't worry me, as it's legible.

Mac is starting to annoy me, but so did Windows, which is why I changed. I also use Parallels on the Mac which will run multiple OSs. I run Windows 2000 :D with a few old programs which work just fine. I have just installed Windows 10 to replace Win 2000. The ONLY reason for that being that Antivirus support for Win 2000 will stop very soon. Mac has become very arrogant and will surely lose market share in the computer (as opposed to iPhone) space. Constantly swapping OS is a waste of time & and an expensive investment updating countless apps, learning new functions and discovering new incompatibilities & the hidden bad surprises :(
Never say never change, but using Mac since 2005. Photo Supreme 3.3.0.2605. I endorse the interoperability of files between applications and systems.

andrew.heard
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Re: Tiny PSu system font size in v4

Post by andrew.heard » 01 Feb 19 8:01

fbungarz wrote:
01 Feb 19 1:06
I reported another nuisance: the kind of font that PSu uses makes spaces really difficult to discern. Is there a space or not between two words in Image Details. Most of the time I don't really know. It is often very difficult to discern. I have know idea, why PSU uses Trebuchet. Looks nice, perhaps. But for me legibility would be a priority...
Thanks Frank. I have also noticed this difficulty to tell whether there is a space or not.

Hert
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Re: Tiny PSu system font size in v4

Post by Hert » 01 Feb 19 13:49

andrew.heard wrote:
01 Feb 19 8:01
fbungarz wrote:
01 Feb 19 1:06
I reported another nuisance: the kind of font that PSu uses makes spaces really difficult to discern. Is there a space or not between two words in Image Details. Most of the time I don't really know. It is often very difficult to discern. I have know idea, why PSU uses Trebuchet. Looks nice, perhaps. But for me legibility would be a priority...
Thanks Frank. I have also noticed this difficulty to tell whether there is a space or not.
Here's a screenshot of text in Image Details from V3 compared to V4; both Windows 10. Note the mentioned spacing issue in V3 with the spacing between "derivative" and "works". In V4 this doesn't exist.
This is on a 4K monitor. As V3 didn't support HighDPI and V4 fully supports High DPI you can ignore the difference in sharpness.
Fonts V3 vs V4.png
Fonts V3 vs V4.png (54.21 KiB) Viewed 609 times
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Stephen
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Re: Tiny PSu system font size in v4

Post by Stephen » 01 Feb 19 20:40

Apparently not only the inter-word spacing is different, but also the kerning, which greatly affects legibility. This sans-serif type face appears to be a proportional font. Maybe a monospaced font where the kerning is identical, would offer more legibility for the same point size? Or a bold type face?
Never say never change, but using Mac since 2005. Photo Supreme 3.3.0.2605. I endorse the interoperability of files between applications and systems.

Stephen
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Re: Tiny PSu system font size in v4

Post by Stephen » 09 Feb 19 17:40

Hert wrote:
01 Feb 19 13:49
Fonts V3 vs V4.png
Please look the screen shots from Hert above.

If you now reduce the window size in your browser or just the text size (Mac is "command -") so that it becomes very small, the first to become illegible is the text on the v4 screen shot. That's my point.
Never say never change, but using Mac since 2005. Photo Supreme 3.3.0.2605. I endorse the interoperability of files between applications and systems.

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