Just "discovered" that I can't create custom XMP in Photo Supreme

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PhilBurton
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Joined: 12 Sep 10 18:47
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Just "discovered" that I can't create custom XMP in Photo Supreme

Post by PhilBurton » 01 Nov 16 1:11

When I first did my search for a DAM that could support custom XMP, which is an important long-term goal for me, I bought IDImager V5, and sure enough, I could create custom XMP, add data for those fields, etc. When Photo Supreme came out, I naively assumed that that this feature carried over, but until now, it was a "future" for me. Well, yesterday the "future" became "now" and I wanted to define a custom metadata scheme that I could apply to one of my subject areas. (Railroads and rail transit systems.) And I discovered that Photo Supreme does not support full custom XMP. :shock:

So I did some searching in the IDImager V5 forum and discovered that a bunch of people had the issue of carrying over custom XMP into Photo Supreme. I'm hoping that some of them can share their hard-won experience so I don't have to re-invent the wheel here (and without detailed documentation to guide me.) Help here would be truly appreciated.

After reading this thread http://forum.idimager.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=22534, I'm wondering what do I get if I copy over all *.idXMPdef and *.idXMPes definition files over to the right Photo Supreme folder?
  • Which Photo Supreme folder?

    Do I get the exact same custom XMP fields, with their properties, etc?

    I would want the custom XMP to apply only to my railroad subject photos and not to all general family pictures, general travel, social events, etc. Is there a way to do this?

    If I revise the custom metadata design at some future point in time, and revise the definition files that I use with Photo Supreme, can I update existing photos with the revised custom XMP?
Have I even asked the right questions here?

I really, really, really don't want to add IDImager to my import/sort-cull/catalog workflow. In one post, Hert says that trying to maintain parallel databases in IDImager and Photo Supreme will lead to trouble, and I am sure he is right. Also I really don't want to use IDImager instead of Photo Supreme.

I probably should have tried to work with custom XMP a year ago, so shame on me about that, :oops: but better late than never. :(

Phil
Photo Supreme user
Home built i7 3930, 32 GB RAM, Win 10 Pro 64, latest version of Photo Supreme 3, Lightroom 6 and Photoshop CS 6 (perpetual licenses)

sanphotgn
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Re: Just "discovered" that I can't create custom XMP in Photo Supreme

Post by sanphotgn » 01 Nov 16 3:17

In Version 3.3: "Custom XMP schemas that were created with old IDimagerV4 or IDimagerV5 versions are no longer read." http://www.idimager.com/WP/?page_id=1374

I waited for a while before updating to 3.3 knowing the schemas would not be supported and I would have to rethink my workflow. I have updated to 3.3 and I am using the Custom Field feature on the Info panel.

If you have a pre 3.3 install of Photo Supreme: the schemas made with ID5 work great.

If you have a pre 3.3:

>Do I get the exact same custom XMP fields, with their properties, etc?

Based on my experience, yes. I didn't have complicated custom XMP fields, however.

>I would want the custom XMP to apply only to my railroad subject photos and not to all general family pictures, general travel, social events, etc. Is there a way to do this?

My guess is yes. I keep separate databases, so I don't know for sure. On the Details panel you can choose between Advanced, Basic, IPTC, and your custom schemas would appear in this drop down.

>If I revise the custom metadata design at some future point in time, and revise the definition files that I use with Photo Supreme, can I update existing photos with the revised custom XMP?

If you are creating new fields, it may work. If you are modifying existing fields ... I don't think it would work.


Over the years, I have modified my ID5 schemas. They were applied to new databases and new images. I never went back in time to update older photos. The data I need is in the XMP sidecars (which are easily searchable) and in another database via the export metadata to CSV.
Photo Supreme 4.3.4.2141 (64 bits) (Windows)

PhilBurton
Posts: 307
Joined: 12 Sep 10 18:47
Location: CA, USA

Re: Just "discovered" that I can't create custom XMP in Photo Supreme

Post by PhilBurton » 01 Nov 16 3:35

sanphotgn wrote:In Version 3.3: "Custom XMP schemas that were created with old IDimagerV4 or IDimagerV5 versions are no longer read." http://www.idimager.com/WP/?page_id=1374

I waited for a while before updating to 3.3 knowing the schemas would not be supported and I would have to rethink my workflow. I have updated to 3.3 and I am using the Custom Field feature on the Info panel.

If you have a pre 3.3 install of Photo Supreme: the schemas made with ID5 work great.
I keep PSu up to date, meaning I have a V3.3 installed.

So I will have to download the latest pre-V3.3. However, I just checked at cp.idimager.com and it appears to offer up only the latest version.
If you have a pre 3.3:

>Do I get the exact same custom XMP fields, with their properties, etc?

Based on my experience, yes. I didn't have complicated custom XMP fields, however.

>I would want the custom XMP to apply only to my railroad subject photos and not to all general family pictures, general travel, social events, etc. Is there a way to do this?

My guess is yes. I keep separate databases, so I don't know for sure. On the Details panel you can choose between Advanced, Basic, IPTC, and your custom schemas would appear in this drop down.

>If I revise the custom metadata design at some future point in time, and revise the definition files that I use with Photo Supreme, can I update existing photos with the revised custom XMP?

If you are creating new fields, it may work. If you are modifying existing fields ... I don't think it would work.


Over the years, I have modified my ID5 schemas. They were applied to new databases and new images. I never went back in time to update older photos. The data I need is in the XMP sidecars (which are easily searchable) and in another database via the export metadata to CSV.
sanphotgn wrote:In Version 3.3: "Custom XMP schemas that were created with old IDimagerV4 or IDimagerV5 versions are no longer read." http://www.idimager.com/WP/?page_id=1374

I waited for a while before updating to 3.3 knowing the schemas would not be supported and I would have to rethink my workflow. I have updated to 3.3 and I am using the Custom Field feature on the Info panel.
Can you provide some detail on the mechanics of carrying over a schema from IDImager to PSu v3.x.

Can I assume that once I feel that my custom schema are stable, I can then upgrade again to the latest V3.3 or later?

If you have a pre 3.3 install of Photo Supreme: the schemas made with ID5 work great.

If you have a pre 3.3:

>Do I get the exact same custom XMP fields, with their properties, etc?

Based on my experience, yes. I didn't have complicated custom XMP fields, however.

>I would want the custom XMP to apply only to my railroad subject photos and not to all general family pictures, general travel, social events, etc. Is there a way to do this?

My guess is yes. I keep separate databases, so I don't know for sure. On the Details panel you can choose between Advanced, Basic, IPTC, and your custom schemas would appear in this drop down.

>If I revise the custom metadata design at some future point in time, and revise the definition files that I use with Photo Supreme, can I update existing photos with the revised custom XMP?

If you are creating new fields, it may work. If you are modifying existing fields ... I don't think it would work.


Over the years, I have modified my ID5 schemas. They were applied to new databases and new images. I never went back in time to update older photos. The data I need is in the XMP sidecars (which are easily searchable) and in another database via the export metadata to CSV.
Thank you for all this information.

Phil
Photo Supreme user
Home built i7 3930, 32 GB RAM, Win 10 Pro 64, latest version of Photo Supreme 3, Lightroom 6 and Photoshop CS 6 (perpetual licenses)

PhilBurton
Posts: 307
Joined: 12 Sep 10 18:47
Location: CA, USA

Re: Just "discovered" that I can't create custom XMP in Photo Supreme

Post by PhilBurton » 01 Nov 16 3:52

sanphotgn,

I forgot to say how much I appreciated your quick reply. It appears that I can limit my use of IDImager to creation of custom metadata templates, and keep on using PSu. Even though some details need to be worked out, I feel relieved. :)

Phil
Photo Supreme user
Home built i7 3930, 32 GB RAM, Win 10 Pro 64, latest version of Photo Supreme 3, Lightroom 6 and Photoshop CS 6 (perpetual licenses)

sanphotgn
Posts: 310
Joined: 26 Aug 07 18:06

Re: Just "discovered" that I can't create custom XMP in Photo Supreme

Post by sanphotgn » 01 Nov 16 18:30

If you can get a hold of, or have, a pre 3.3 exe, you could uninstall 3.3, install the pre 3.3, create new databases, import the images, ... and never upgrade. You won't be able to use a 3.3 database with a pre 3.3 install.

To add your schemas to a pre 3.3 install: close out the database, copy over the idxmpdef and idxmpes files to the appdata\EditorSchemas folder of PSU.

The next time you open the database, they should be listed in the drop down box / menu in the upper right of the Details panel.


The schemas won't work in 3.3. It is either use pre 3.3 and the schemas or use 3.3 and the custom fields on the Info panel. After a lot of thought, I chose the latter. I rebuilt my custom fields using the custom fields feature on the Info panel. The custom fields on the Info panel are "simple" text fields, where one can enter text, numbers, dates, .... The fields themselves do not contain options (graphical, formatting, ...) as found in ID5.

(Edited this post to hopefully clarify the custom fields on the Info panel.)
Last edited by sanphotgn on 04 Nov 16 19:43, edited 1 time in total.
Photo Supreme 4.3.4.2141 (64 bits) (Windows)

PhilBurton
Posts: 307
Joined: 12 Sep 10 18:47
Location: CA, USA

Re: Just "discovered" that I can't create custom XMP in Photo Supreme

Post by PhilBurton » 01 Nov 16 22:29

sanphotgn wrote: The schemas won't work in 3.3. It is either use pre 3.3 and the schemas or use 3.3 and the custom fields on the Info panel.
Well, that certainly clarifies my choices. Use IDImager style custom metadata or be able to upgrade to v3.3 and eventually 4.0
After a lot of thought, I chose the latter. I rebuilt my custom fields using the custom fields feature on the Info panel. The custom fields on the Info panel are "simple" text fields. No options.
I guess that's also my choice. I'm going to play with the v3.3 custom fields and see if I can make do with them.

Phil
Photo Supreme user
Home built i7 3930, 32 GB RAM, Win 10 Pro 64, latest version of Photo Supreme 3, Lightroom 6 and Photoshop CS 6 (perpetual licenses)

sanphotgn
Posts: 310
Joined: 26 Aug 07 18:06

Re: Just "discovered" that I can't create custom XMP in Photo Supreme

Post by sanphotgn » 02 Nov 16 17:58

If you have been using ID5 to enter custom metadata into your photos and you want to use 3.3 to continue working on them:

1. Create your new custom XMP fields in 3.3.

2. If importing, you can use macros to pre-fill your new custom XMP fields based on your ID5 fields.

3. If photos are already in your database, you can select the photos, enter the macros, and click on the OK button to apply.

I just tried this with one of my older photos, where I used ID5 schemas in a pre 3.3 install. It works.

Example:

ID5 field: %xmp:pbrr:RailroadStation

Enter the above into your new Railroad Station custom XMP field.

Your ID5 metadata will always be in the file, but this gives you a chance to move forward with 3.3 and work on the metadata. You could add a custom field explaining why there are two sets of data and which is the most current.
Photo Supreme 4.3.4.2141 (64 bits) (Windows)

fbungarz
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Re: Just "discovered" that I can't create custom XMP in Photo Supreme

Post by fbungarz » 02 Nov 16 23:35

There is probably good reason, why Hert decided to finally abolish non-standardized custom XMP.

When Adobe introduced XMP as so-called eXtensible Metadata Platform, IDI took the eXtensible quite literally; for years IDI was the only software that allowed users to deign their own custom XMP without major programming skills. I was one of the early adopters, excited that I now could write specimen collection data directly into my photos using my own custom XMP. Perfect ...
Well, almost. The problem: virtually no other tools will ever read "my" custom XMP. Thus the decision to abandon my own custom XMP in favor of using IDI to "translate" the DarwinCore metadata standard for biological diversity metadata into DarwinCore XMP. And I am very grateful to Hert that with version 3.3. DarwinCore XMP is at last natively supported by PSu. Granted, DarwinCore XMP is still not widely adopted, but at least it is based on a metadata standard now widely employed by Natural History Collections and thus at least compatible with that standard!

PSu's own "custom" ICS schema also has at least the one advantage that it is PSu's own quasi-standard. Thus, there is at least a chance that some day other tools will be able to read (and write?) it - unlike IDI's custom XMP it is not entirely arbitrary.

The once liberating promise of XMP to be indeed eXtensible has unfortunately not delivered. Managing metadata in entirely obscure fields that no tool will ever be able to access defies the purpose of adding metadata to these images. So, anybody is probably well advised to migrate their own IDI custom XMP into PSu's ICS XMP.

All that said, I regret that custom XMP is not generally more widely supported. It is quite ironic that even Lightroom, Adobe's own brainchild, only supports standard XMP...

PhilBurton
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Joined: 12 Sep 10 18:47
Location: CA, USA

Re: Just "discovered" that I can't create custom XMP in Photo Supreme

Post by PhilBurton » 03 Nov 16 22:06

fbungarz wrote:There is probably good reason, why Hert decided to finally abolish non-standardized custom XMP.
Reading through old posts recently, Hert believed that very few people used custom XMP. And by eliminating those features, he can reduce the amount of testing that goes into every new release.
When Adobe introduced XMP as so-called eXtensible Metadata Platform, IDI took the eXtensible quite literally; for years IDI was the only software that allowed users to deign their own custom XMP without major programming skills. I was one of the early adopters, excited that I now could write specimen collection data directly into my photos using my own custom XMP. Perfect ...
I can't be 100% certain, but I believe that iMatch supports/supported some form of custom XMP. I know a group of people who among themselves devised a set of extensions that they used to share photos.
Well, almost. The problem: virtually no other tools will ever read "my" custom XMP. Thus the decision to abandon my own custom XMP in favor of using IDI to "translate" the DarwinCore metadata standard for biological diversity metadata into DarwinCore XMP. And I am very grateful to Hert that with version 3.3. DarwinCore XMP is at last natively supported by PSu. Granted, DarwinCore XMP is still not widely adopted, but at least it is based on a metadata standard now widely employed by Natural History Collections and thus at least compatible with that standard!
So true about lack of third-party support for XMP. I attribute that to poor marketing and "industry evangelism" on the part of Adobe. But it's not only XMP. To a lesser extent, Adobe's DNG isn't supported either. Yes, some guys had an "openraw" idea about 8 years ago, but that idea went basically nowhere, despite the claims on the website. https://www.openraw.org. Adobe's DNG is the closest thing to an open raw format, but I claim that it has had only limited success since Nikon and Canon have both continued to use their proprietary formats. Again, an evangelism failure.
PSu's own "custom" ICS schema also has at least the one advantage that it is PSu's own quasi-standard. Thus, there is at least a chance that some day other tools will be able to read (and write?) it - unlike IDI's custom XMP it is not entirely arbitrary.
Agree with you. However, that support is limited to only text fields right now. Since I just finished experimenting with custom fields, I have some questions, which I will post in a separate thread.
The once liberating promise of XMP to be indeed eXtensible has unfortunately not delivered.
I would argue that Adobe focused only on the "engineering" aspects of XMP, without considering "deployment and usage" across a range of user types and scenarios. BTW, you see tech companies make this sort of mistake only all the time.
Managing metadata in entirely obscure fields that no tool will ever be able to access defies the purpose of adding metadata to these images. So, anybody is probably well advised to migrate their own IDI custom XMP into PSu's ICS XMP.
I agree again, and that is my plan going forward for my own custom metadata for railroad photography subjects.
All that said, I regret that custom XMP is not generally more widely supported. It is quite ironic that even Lightroom, Adobe's own brainchild, only supports standard XMP...
Yes, because again, Adobe didn't think through the issues.

I don't want to hijack my own thread, but I will say this. Custom XMP isn't just one "problem." It's a range of problems. It's special interests such as yours or museums or art collectors. it's also hobbyists, and it's also people who just want custom fields for their own use and have no interest in sharing that metadata with anyone else. But I don't think that this forum is even the right place to discuss these issues.

Phil
Photo Supreme user
Home built i7 3930, 32 GB RAM, Win 10 Pro 64, latest version of Photo Supreme 3, Lightroom 6 and Photoshop CS 6 (perpetual licenses)

AltoonaBound
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Re: Just "discovered" that I can't create custom XMP in Photo Supreme

Post by AltoonaBound » 30 Dec 16 0:19

Phil,

Just ran across this topic. I am also a photographer with a primary interest in rail. I originally bought IDI because of it's flexible XMP and am now facing the realization that my custom data cannot be moved forward. What are you doing to get past this?

Eric
Eric

PhilBurton
Posts: 307
Joined: 12 Sep 10 18:47
Location: CA, USA

Re: Just "discovered" that I can't create custom XMP in Photo Supreme

Post by PhilBurton » 02 Jan 17 2:04

AltoonaBound wrote:Phil,

Just ran across this topic. I am also a photographer with a primary interest in rail. I originally bought IDI because of it's flexible XMP and am now facing the realization that my custom data cannot be moved forward. What are you doing to get past this?

Eric
Eric,

Easiest way to explain is via email or even phone call. Email me at philip-b@comcast.net.

Are you an old PRR fan? The "Standard Railroad of the World." My earliest involvement with the PRR was riding between NYC and Washington behind GG-1s. :D I lived through the Penn-Central debacle and then ConRail. I still can't get used to the idea that NS owns most of the old PRR. :cry:

Phil
Photo Supreme user
Home built i7 3930, 32 GB RAM, Win 10 Pro 64, latest version of Photo Supreme 3, Lightroom 6 and Photoshop CS 6 (perpetual licenses)

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