hierarchal labels

vkfoto
Posts: 94
Joined: 19 Oct 16 3:51

hierarchal labels

Post by vkfoto » 27 Oct 16 3:12

I've extended some the places labels to include four levels
A/B/C/D

I can assign D and the whole series gets assigned.
I can't assign C, expecting A and B to also be assigned, without D
If I assign D, and then remove D, the whole set from A to D is removed.

Do I have to select the the last member of any series? A/B/C/D
Do I have to create shorter series if I sometimes only want A/B/C?
Is it something to do with how they are defined?

fbungarz
Posts: 1544
Joined: 08 Dec 06 5:03
Location: Arizona, USA

Re: hierarchal labels

Post by fbungarz » 27 Oct 16 8:18

Place labels are a bit special/unusual.
Under "Preferences - Synchronize Settings - Read Settings" you will find an option called GEO location processing. This determines how labels in the main category called places will be assigned/written.
What you need to understand is that these labels are not simple keywords only. They are/can be mapped also to specific XMP fields, have a look at the Details panel - IPTC - Content:
GEO-Details.jpg
GEO-Details.jpg (197.26 KiB) Viewed 8581 times
The fields that appear here can, depending on your options, automatically be filled by your place labels. In fact those are the same fields that also show up in the GEO panel:
GEO-Details_2.jpg
GEO-Details_2.jpg (199.76 KiB) Viewed 8581 times
Now, under Places you can create a keyword hierarchy that PSu "tries" to map to these fields: "Location - City - State/Province - County Code - Country". The "granularity" how this mapping of labels to these fields takes place is defined in your "Preferences - Synchronize Settings - Read Settings":
GEO-Details_3.jpg
GEO-Details_3.jpg (81.75 KiB) Viewed 8581 times
Now, I understand that in my last post I mentioned that the parent labels are not necessarily removed when you unassign a child label. This is generally correct, but does not apply to the Places category.
You assign "Paris - France - Europe" with having "Up to City Level" enabled in Preferences. This means the fields "City - Country" get´also filled in. Removing the label "Paris" will also clear these fields again and thus also remove the labels "France" and "Europe"...

So - essentially the behavior for labels in the category "places" is, for good reason, quite different from the other categories. PSu tries to match labels in that category with the appropriate XMP fields.
The only other category that in a way is a bit similar is that of "People". PSu assumes that the labels in that category represent names of people that appear in your image, i.e., persons shown on the photo. There is an XMP field called "PersonInImage" (in Details panel - Advanced - IPTC extension). This field gets automatically filled with the labels from the "People" category and if a label from that category is removed it is being cleared from that field too.

Any other label(s) in all other categories can manually be mapped to XMP fields, but they are not automatically mapped by default.

vkfoto
Posts: 94
Joined: 19 Oct 16 3:51

Re: hierarchal labels

Post by vkfoto » 27 Oct 16 12:36

Thank you. Will have to study this in more detail.

tstoddard
Posts: 578
Joined: 07 Sep 12 12:51

Re: hierarchal labels

Post by tstoddard » 27 Oct 16 12:51

vkfoto wrote:I can't assign C, expecting A and B to also be assigned, without D
Actually, you should be able to do this to a fresh image. In other words, a file that has no location data or GEO coordinates already written to any of it metadata fields. As Frank pointed out, PSU will attempt to read any data that is in the file and assign labels accordingly. If there is no location data or GEO coordinates in the file and you assign C, D should not be assigned or written into any of your metadata fields.

I haven't tested this but I believe it to be true. You should be able to test this on a single image by going into image details and clearing all location data including GEO coordinates. Make sure you save your metadata to file and then try to assign C. There are multiple place where location metadata is mapped to files so be sure to find all of them and remove them.

The behavior you are describing is one area in which PSU can sometimes outsmart itself. By automating the coordination between labels, GEO coordinates, and metadata mappings, it sometimes takes away some of the control we have over what is written to our catalog and image files. An area that gets very complicated is what happens when you revoke a label. Often, metadata that was written by the label when it was assigned is not removed from the file when the label is revoked. I think this is probably what is causing your issues with A, B, C, and D. Discussions about this are scattered throughout the forum and can get lengthy and somewhat confusing.
Tom Stoddard

fbungarz
Posts: 1544
Joined: 08 Dec 06 5:03
Location: Arizona, USA

Re: hierarchal labels

Post by fbungarz » 27 Oct 16 13:59

An area that gets very complicated is what happens when you revoke a label. Often, metadata that was written by the label when it was assigned is not removed from the file when the label is revoked.
Actually, this is very consistent. Mapped metadata only get deleted from a field, if they correspond to labels from the Places category and the People category. This is because labels from these two categories get automatically mapped to their XMP fields.
For all other categories the mapped content is NOT removed from the XMP field, when a mapped label is being revoked! The content of the field remains even though the label has been revoked. This is unfortunate because it can lead to stale metadata.

Sometimes a picture says more than a thousand words ...
Label_mapping.jpg
Label_mapping.jpg (454.59 KiB) Viewed 8560 times

tstoddard
Posts: 578
Joined: 07 Sep 12 12:51

Re: hierarchal labels

Post by tstoddard » 27 Oct 16 17:07

fbungarz wrote:Actually, this is very consistent. Mapped metadata only get deleted from a field, if they correspond to labels from the Places category and the People category. This is because labels from these two categories get automatically mapped to their XMP fields.
Frank, are you sure about that? I did some experimenting this morning and I don't think my location data did get removed when I revoked the label from the Places category. I was trying to replicate the situation vkfoto described in his original post where assigning C also caused D to be assigned. In my case, the label D didn't get assigned when I assigned the label C but the location data associated with label D still showed up in my metadata fields in the details panel. Perhaps it has something to do with the GEO coordinates being in the file?

I'm not at home now so I can't confirm but I'll certainly try it out some more tonight and get back to you with my results. I don't want to hijack this conversation, though. My point was that one should be able to have a hierarchy of labels, e.g. "A/B/C/D" and be able to assign C and end up having A/B/C assigned but not D. Do you dispute that?
Tom Stoddard

fbungarz
Posts: 1544
Joined: 08 Dec 06 5:03
Location: Arizona, USA

Re: hierarchal labels

Post by fbungarz » 27 Oct 16 18:24

...and I don't think my location data did get removed when I revoked the label from the Places category
At least as I can tell this works (at least on my system...?). But of course I am not usually checking each and every field, so perhaps sometimes it doesn't?
e.g. "A/B/C/D" and be able to assign C and end up having A/B/C assigned but not D. Do you dispute that?
I did not dispute that at all. That should work and at least on my system it does. (I thought vkphoto was complaining that adding only C, not D would always automatically assign A and B, but I now see that he was saying that apparently C cannot be assigned at all...)

vkfoto
Posts: 94
Joined: 19 Oct 16 3:51

Re: hierarchal labels

Post by vkfoto » 27 Oct 16 23:37

I tried again and still can't select one of the intermediate values, only the end points of each branch. I created this catalog tree:
catalog.JPG
catalog.JPG (15.76 KiB) Viewed 8518 times
I can select any of the end values, Etoshia, Deadvlei, etc but if i try to select Sossusvlei, the parent of Deadvlei, it doesn't get applied. I even applied the Deadvlei branch and removed Deadvlei itself, hoping the other three would stay but no, they all got removed.
These are my Sych read settings:
synch read settings.JPG
synch read settings.JPG (37.15 KiB) Viewed 8518 times
and my Synch write settings:
synch write settings.JPG
synch write settings.JPG (45.85 KiB) Viewed 8518 times
The Deadvlei details:
deadlei details.JPG
deadlei details.JPG (24.15 KiB) Viewed 8518 times

Did I misunderstand something or am I doing it wrong? Or do some other settings need to be adjusted?

vkfoto
Posts: 94
Joined: 19 Oct 16 3:51

Re: hierarchal labels

Post by vkfoto » 28 Oct 16 0:35

In my continuing saga, I had previously created a label set, Africa, Namibia and applied it to a set of images. I then defined a new label, Spitzkoppe. I selected a subset of the previous group of images, applied the new label and got this error messge:
access violation.JPG
access violation.JPG (16.47 KiB) Viewed 8513 times
When I clicked on OK, the message disappeared and Spitzkoppe had been applied anyway. What happened?

tstoddard
Posts: 578
Joined: 07 Sep 12 12:51

Re: hierarchal labels

Post by tstoddard » 28 Oct 16 1:38

vkfoto wrote:I can select any of the end values, Etoshia, Deadvlei, etc but if i try to select Sossusvlei, the parent of Deadvlei, it doesn't get applied.
Okay, I was a little confused but I started experimenting and found one possible scenario in which you would experience what you're describing. The problem is that my configuration differs from yours so I'm not sure that it would even apply to you. First of all, it would be helpful if you told us how you are attempting to select the Sossusvlei label. There are several different ways in which to do it.

The Label Assignment Panel (LAP) is the panel on the right that appears when you click on the "Assign" button in the lower right corner of the window. In the LAP, you can type the name of the label you want in the search field at the top of the panel and then select it after it appears. You can click on the magnifying glass icon at the top of the LAP and navigate your way to the label you want to assign and then click on it there. (This is where I found that I could not assign my parent label, even though it had not already been assigned.) You could also click on a label in one of the label sets that appear in the LAP. Yet another way to assign a label would be to drag and drop a thumbnail onto it in the catalog explorer on the left. Which of these methods are you using?

I used my "San Francisco" label to experiment with. I have place labels defined for North America / United States / California / San Francisco. If I assign San Francisco to a file and then try using the magnifying glass method to assign California, I am unable to assign California to my file. If, however, I type California in the search field at the top of the LAP, once the auto complete feature lists my labels, I can click on the California label in the list and it will get assigned to my file. Also, if I drag my image thumbnail onto California in the category explorer on the left, the California label does get assigned to my file.

Which methods have you tried?

I have no idea what is causing the access violation.
Tom Stoddard

fbungarz
Posts: 1544
Joined: 08 Dec 06 5:03
Location: Arizona, USA

Re: hierarchal labels

Post by fbungarz » 28 Oct 16 8:19

Just to illustrate what Tom is talking about, a screenshot of the Label Assignment Panel:
LabelAssignmentPanel.jpg
LabelAssignmentPanel.jpg (302.69 KiB) Viewed 8472 times

vkfoto
Posts: 94
Joined: 19 Oct 16 3:51

Re: hierarchal labels

Post by vkfoto » 28 Oct 16 12:24

Naturally I would pick the one method (the magnifying glass search) that doesn't work. Tried typing the label and it worked. Tried picking the label from the Recently Used and it also worked.

Thanks to all your help I can continue with my labeling.

tstoddard
Posts: 578
Joined: 07 Sep 12 12:51

Re: hierarchal labels

Post by tstoddard » 28 Oct 16 19:45

I'm glad we figured that out. It appears that you've helped us to identify a bug. I will submit a bug report when I get a chance.

Thanks!
Tom Stoddard

vkfoto
Posts: 94
Joined: 19 Oct 16 3:51

Re: hierarchal labels

Post by vkfoto » 05 Nov 16 0:52

My label adventures continue.

Hope that bug got reported.

Meanwhile, while applying labels, I created a new label D as a child of B in the sequence A, B
Later I wanted to correct the sequence and make D a child of the existing sequence A, B, C
So instead of A,B,D it was changed to A,B,C,D

On the assignment tab, the new sequence was not showing, only the original, even though synchronization was complete. When I removed the assigned label D and reapplied it, the new sequence A,B,C,D was also applied.

Since D was only used on one set of images and that set was currently displayed, it was easy to notice and make the correction. What if D had also been used elsewhere? Would those other images have continued to carry the original sequence or would they have eventually also changed?

vlad
Posts: 895
Joined: 01 Sep 08 15:20

Re: hierarchal labels

Post by vlad » 07 Nov 16 0:07

How exactly did you change A,B,D to A,B,C,D ? Did you simply relocate (drag and drop) label D under label C ? Did you have label D configured to assign the parent labels?

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