Catalogue hierarchy

SteveF48
Posts: 9
Joined: 21 Jun 11 12:16

Catalogue hierarchy

Post by SteveF48 » 12 Jun 16 19:02

I've imported my Lightroom catalog, but Photo Supreme has placed all of my keywords under a top level Lightroom category.
This means that any changes duplicate the keywords in Lightroom. (It adds a Lightroom hierarchy to my existing hierarchy)
Is there an easy way to promote a category to the highest level?
Thanks in advance,
Steve

Hert
Posts: 6685
Joined: 13 Sep 03 7:24

Re: Catalogue hierarchy

Post by Hert » 13 Jun 16 23:05

1. Create the top categories that you used in Lightroom
2. Drag the top items from the Lightroom category to the fixed categories (you can do that in bulk by selecting multiple items and dragging them)

Tip; never use two applications for metadata management.
This is a User-to-User forum which means that users post questions here for other users.
Feature requests, change suggestions, or bugs can be logged in the ticketing system

PhilBurton
Posts: 307
Joined: 12 Sep 10 18:47
Location: CA, USA

Re: Catalogue hierarchy

Post by PhilBurton » 17 Jun 16 19:30

Hert wrote:
Tip; never use two applications for metadata management.
If that tip applies, then what is the point of following metadata standards, having interoperability of star ratings, etc? Consider all the threads from people working with CaptureOne.

Phil
Photo Supreme user
Home built i7 3930, 32 GB RAM, Win 10 Pro 64, latest version of Photo Supreme 3, Lightroom 6 and Photoshop CS 6 (perpetual licenses)

Mike Buckley
Posts: 1194
Joined: 10 Jul 08 14:18

Re: Catalogue hierarchy

Post by Mike Buckley » 17 Jun 16 20:50

Phil,

There is a huge difference between using multiple software applications to manage metadata and using them to view metadata. I concur that using multiple applications to manage metadata is akin to an accident waiting to happen. It would be nice if all software applications implemented the metadata standards but they don't. So, we're left that its practical to use one program to manage the metadata and to use the other programs only to view the metadata.

PhilBurton
Posts: 307
Joined: 12 Sep 10 18:47
Location: CA, USA

Re: Catalogue hierarchy

Post by PhilBurton » 18 Jun 16 7:05

Mike Buckley wrote:Phil,

There is a huge difference between using multiple software applications to manage metadata and using them to view metadata. I concur that using multiple applications to manage metadata is akin to an accident waiting to happen. It would be nice if all software applications implemented the metadata standards but they don't. So, we're left that its practical to use one program to manage the metadata and to use the other programs only to view the metadata.
Mike,

Point very well taken. However I think there are some very fine lines here. as in ...
1. I believe that the OP had an issue just trying to "view" metadata created in Lightroom. Yes? No?
2. Although I don't use CaptureOne, so I haven't followed the issues in detail, it seems that people are trying to manage bits and pieces of metadata in both C1 and PS. Yes? No?

In a different perspective, the web page for PS says something to the effect that your data is not locked in to PS, that you are free to move to another DAM system without loss of data. So if in some future time, I decide that I like something else better than PS, then won't that "something else" also be managing metadata?

Phil
Photo Supreme user
Home built i7 3930, 32 GB RAM, Win 10 Pro 64, latest version of Photo Supreme 3, Lightroom 6 and Photoshop CS 6 (perpetual licenses)

Hert
Posts: 6685
Joined: 13 Sep 03 7:24

Re: Catalogue hierarchy

Post by Hert » 18 Jun 16 11:12

PhilBurton wrote:1. I believe that the OP had an issue just trying to "view" metadata created in Lightroom. Yes? No?
How I read it, the OP wants to use the Lightroom hierarchy in PSU and exchange them between PSU and LR. That is what led me to my remark about using different programs to manage metadata. If OP only want to import from PR to PSU once then that's very much ok.
2. Although I don't use CaptureOne, so I haven't followed the issues in detail, it seems that people are trying to manage bits and pieces of metadata in both C1 and PS. Yes? No?
Some try that indeed. Read the topics and see what that leads to.
In a different perspective, the web page for PS says something to the effect that your data is not locked in to PS, that you are free to move to another DAM system without loss of data. So if in some future time, I decide that I like something else better than PS, then won't that "something else" also be managing metadata?
Of course...but then the new application will be managing the metadata, not PSU. The warning is about using multiple applications mixed
This is a User-to-User forum which means that users post questions here for other users.
Feature requests, change suggestions, or bugs can be logged in the ticketing system

Mike Buckley
Posts: 1194
Joined: 10 Jul 08 14:18

Re: Catalogue hierarchy

Post by Mike Buckley » 18 Jun 16 11:14

PhilBurton wrote:So if in some future time, I decide that I like something else better than PS, then won't that "something else" also be managing metadata?
No. If you believe as I do that you should use only one program to manage your metadata, you would be using that software instead of Supreme to do so. You wouldn't be using multiple programs to manage it.

Stephen
Posts: 663
Joined: 01 Oct 14 10:15

Re: Catalogue hierarchy

Post by Stephen » 18 Jun 16 15:39

PhilBurton wrote:Although I don't use CaptureOne, so I haven't followed the issues in detail, it seems that people are trying to manage bits and pieces of metadata in both C1 and PS. Yes? No?
Hert wrote:Some try that indeed. Read the topics and see what that leads to.
Both C1 and PSu have their strengths and I use both, but exclusively for their strong points, i.e. PSu only for database management and C1 only for editing. However, there are still issues with meta data when bringing files back to PSu, even though I do not touch metadata in C1. I have not conclusively got to the bottom of the issue.
Never say never change, but using Mac since 2005. Photo Supreme 3.3.0.2605. I endorse the interoperability of files between applications and systems.

PhilBurton
Posts: 307
Joined: 12 Sep 10 18:47
Location: CA, USA

Re: Catalogue hierarchy

Post by PhilBurton » 19 Jun 16 21:46

Mike Buckley wrote:
PhilBurton wrote:So if in some future time, I decide that I like something else better than PS, then won't that "something else" also be managing metadata?
No. If you believe as I do that you should use only one program to manage your metadata, you would be using that software instead of Supreme to do so. You wouldn't be using multiple programs to manage it.
Mike,

I'm not sure I see the practical difference. If some metadata is created in Program A, and then I use Program B to edit/manage that metadata, does it matter if I'm using Program A, and then B but no longer A, or if I'm using both at the same time.

(should we start a separate thread for this discussion?)

Phil
Photo Supreme user
Home built i7 3930, 32 GB RAM, Win 10 Pro 64, latest version of Photo Supreme 3, Lightroom 6 and Photoshop CS 6 (perpetual licenses)

fbungarz
Posts: 1628
Joined: 08 Dec 06 5:03
Location: Arizona, USA

Re: Catalogue hierarchy

Post by fbungarz » 20 Jun 16 11:08

Hi Phil & Mike,
I actually agree with both of you (is that even possible?).
I do think Phil has a strong point that metadata should ideally be 100% compatible and thus fully portable between applications. The sad reality though is that this is generally not the case as the example in the original post by Steve points out. And the PSU forum is, sadly, full of other examples too. It seems obvious that some major players in image management simply do not adhere much to metadata standards [and unfortunately nobody can force them to...].
I have been following the discussions on Phase One and PSu closely. It seems that even if you decide to manage all your metadata 100% in PSu Phase One still simply deletes some of your metadata. So, then the decision is: can you live with this or perhaps devise strategies to re-write the metadata that were lost?
So, Mike and Hert's advice is simply borne by necessity. The sad reality is: metadata are not fully portable between different applications and anyone using different programs has to devise strategies to work around that...

Cheers,
Frank

SteveF48
Posts: 9
Joined: 21 Jun 11 12:16

Re: Catalogue hierarchy

Post by SteveF48 » 20 Jun 16 13:26

I'm fed up with paying Adobe every year for a program that seems to have minimal support. I would like to move to a different DAM, hence the need to maintain metadata (temporarily) in two pieces of software.
Any replacement for LR should accept the LR hierarchy, with minimal disruption, so that I can continue to find my photos without first having to find where the Category/Keywords have been moved to. I use about 2000 keywords, so finding the right one in that lot is not a trivial task.
Photo Supreme is steadily dropping off my list of suitable software, because:
1) It has crashed several times in the little time that I've been using the demo version.If the demo is the same as the full software that does not inspire confidence. I've only added 48K photos, so far.
2) I imported my Lightroom catalog, but 'verifying folders', which appears to be the way to update Photo Supreme with photos added to Lightroom, has created a mess. Some of my Lightroom Keywords (PS Categories) have been triplicated! Duplication I could understand, because PS placed all imported keywords under the Lightroom parent, then verifying adds new keywords to the category hierarchy outside that parent, but why does it also add some to Miscellaneous?
3) The suggestion to copy categories to the correct parent sounds good, but a) One can't copy a category when the destination parent already contains a category of that name, b) Categories aren't sorted within their parent, so it's difficult to tell whether (a) applies when a category may appear 3 times under different parents.
Thank you everyone for your suggestions, but I think life's too short for me to continue to fight with PS.
Steve

Stephen
Posts: 663
Joined: 01 Oct 14 10:15

Re: Catalogue hierarchy

Post by Stephen » 20 Jun 16 14:29

SteveF48 wrote:I'm fed up with paying Adobe every year for a program that seems to have minimal support. I would like to move to a different DAM, hence the need to maintain metadata (temporarily) in two pieces of software.
That is why I don't go the Adobe route.
Your presence here shows that you are already ahead of the majority in your thinking. This might be the price you will have to pay to be on the leading edge. Until, of course, that you can convince all software manufacturers to cooperate... talking about life being too short ;-)

PS You will get more support from the users here than at Adobe, although the company (and user base) are much smaller.
Finding keywords is relatively fast, even on a slower computer. I currently have approx 104,000 images imported and I guess 12,000 keywords.
Never say never change, but using Mac since 2005. Photo Supreme 3.3.0.2605. I endorse the interoperability of files between applications and systems.

PhilBurton
Posts: 307
Joined: 12 Sep 10 18:47
Location: CA, USA

Re: Catalogue hierarchy

Post by PhilBurton » 20 Jun 16 16:35

fbungarz wrote:Hi Phil & Mike,
I actually agree with both of you (is that even possible?).
Wow. Now Mike, do you agree with me and Frank here?

It seems obvious that some major players in image management simply do not adhere much to metadata standards [and unfortunately nobody can force them to...].

So, then the decision is: can you live with this or perhaps devise strategies to re-write the metadata that were lost?

So, Mike and Hert's advice is simply borne by necessity. The sad reality is: metadata are not fully portable between different applications and anyone using different programs has to devise strategies to work around that...

Cheers,
Frank
So how about this: Photo Supreme is the one DAM "to rule them all." How about building in functions in PS that explicitly deal with issues when interchanging data with say Lightroom or Capture One? If Hert agrees, then maybe he can ask us to submit specific examples of where the other application doesn't play nice with the metadata.

Phil
Photo Supreme user
Home built i7 3930, 32 GB RAM, Win 10 Pro 64, latest version of Photo Supreme 3, Lightroom 6 and Photoshop CS 6 (perpetual licenses)

Mike Buckley
Posts: 1194
Joined: 10 Jul 08 14:18

Re: Catalogue hierarchy

Post by Mike Buckley » 20 Jun 16 17:21

PhilBurton wrote:does it matter if...I'm using both at the same time.
I stand by my recommendation to use only one program at a time. The question can be asked as many ways as possible but my answer will remain the same. That's because the fundamental reasons for my recommendation remain the same.

PhilBurton
Posts: 307
Joined: 12 Sep 10 18:47
Location: CA, USA

Re: Catalogue hierarchy

Post by PhilBurton » 20 Jun 16 19:28

Mike Buckley wrote:
PhilBurton wrote:does it matter if...I'm using both at the same time.
I stand by my recommendation to use only one program at a time. The question can be asked as many ways as possible but my answer will remain the same. That's because the fundamental reasons for my recommendation remain the same.
Mike,

The logical conclusion to what you have said, and I'm not necessarily disagreeing here, the logical conclusion is that if I ever want/need to switch DAM programs, I am going to encounter issues with the metadata created in PS. I'm sure are right, based on the "realities" of the DAM space today. But it also means that data portability is a goal not yet achieved, despite best efforts.

Phil
Photo Supreme user
Home built i7 3930, 32 GB RAM, Win 10 Pro 64, latest version of Photo Supreme 3, Lightroom 6 and Photoshop CS 6 (perpetual licenses)

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