How to purge labels from database?

Stephen
Posts: 663
Joined: 01 Oct 14 10:15

How to purge labels from database?

Post by Stephen » 29 Mar 16 21:43

Several labels which were 'historically' imported into the miscellaneous category are now haunting me and I cannot seem to remove them. They are allocated to certain images and when I open an image to update the labels, I remove the "write to keyword" designation if it is incorrect.

I then proceed to write the description of the image in the Details view and verify the keywords, deleting the incorrect ones. When I switch back to the Assign view, the deleted keywords have been reassigned as labels.

Despite removing all existences of images using those labels in the misc category and deleting the word or phrase in the misc category, I cannot rid them from the database.

This is bugging me because I need to travel
Never say never change, but using Mac since 2005. Photo Supreme 3.3.0.2605. I endorse the interoperability of files between applications and systems.

Mike Buckley
Posts: 1194
Joined: 10 Jul 08 14:18

Re: How to purge labels from database?

Post by Mike Buckley » 30 Mar 16 0:40

You only removed the keywords embedded in the image files. The catalog labels were still assigned to the image files, not reassigned to them. As mentioned earlier, your best bet is to use the Assign panel, not the Details panel, to manage your catalog labels and thus also your keywords.

To remove a catalog label from the catalog, select Catalog mode and "By Category," run a search on the label you want to purge, make sure the correct catalog label is selected, press the Delete key.

fbungarz
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Location: Arizona, USA

Re: How to purge labels from database?

Post by fbungarz » 30 Mar 16 11:21

Actually there might even be a faster (and equally secure) way of doing this: Simply select all labels in Miscallaeneous and delete them. The Assign panel is great fro assigning and removing individual labels. The Details panels should not be used for removing/editing keywords.
But you can re-organize your labels also directly in the tree itself. Right-click gives you the option to re-locate a label (from Miscellaneous to any other category or place in the tree), merge (with any other label), or delete. And you can even select a bunch of keywords (via CTRL+click or SHIFT+click) and then re-locate, merge or delete them all together.
Doing this is a great way to re-organize your database. A much more secure way than drag & drop (which also works). But you need to be careful: there is no "undo" button. Once you merged two labels, there is no "un-merge again". Once you deleted a label, it is gone... (unless you have auto-sync off and read it back to your database from the file).
I hope that'll work for you...

Mike Buckley
Posts: 1194
Joined: 10 Jul 08 14:18

Re: How to purge labels from database?

Post by Mike Buckley » 30 Mar 16 13:23

fbungarz wrote:Actually there might even be a faster (and equally secure) way of doing this: Simply select all labels in Miscallaeneous and delete them.
Thanks for mentioning that, Frank. I remember trying that awhile ago. It didn't work on my system, so I never tried it again. I tried it just now and it worked fine.

fbungarz
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Location: Arizona, USA

Re: How to purge labels from database?

Post by fbungarz » 30 Mar 16 15:21

I am using this a lot. Couldn't live without it. Particularly the option to configure lots of labels in one go...

Stephen
Posts: 663
Joined: 01 Oct 14 10:15

Re: How to purge labels from database?

Post by Stephen » 30 Mar 16 15:35

fbungarz wrote:The Assign panel is great fro assigning and removing individual labels. The Details panels should not be used for removing/editing keywords.
Since learning here recently the best practice of only applying labels in the Assignment panel, that it what I do and I adjust them accordingly if I want them to write keywords. So far so good. But I still use the Details panel to write the description (where else) and at that time I delete any bad keywords which still exist before sending them to the customer.

However, when switching back to the Assign Panel I discovered that the bad keywords had reappeared. This is AFTER having located them in misc and deleted them there AND naturally, having synced everything. So it was puzzling me where they came from and that was the reason for my post.

As mentioned initially, I do delete the bad keywords from the misc list. I don't have the privilege of being able to delete all labels in that list though because they have not all yet been assigned.
Never say never change, but using Mac since 2005. Photo Supreme 3.3.0.2605. I endorse the interoperability of files between applications and systems.

Mike Buckley
Posts: 1194
Joined: 10 Jul 08 14:18

Re: How to purge labels from database?

Post by Mike Buckley » 30 Mar 16 16:06

If you deleted the catalog labels from the Miscellaneous category of the Catalog tree, your issue probably has to do with a combination of Preference settings pertaining to auto synching and Synchronize read and write settings and possibly the method of manual synching if you used it. The only explanation for the catalog labels reappearing after you had deleted them from the Catalog tree is that the corresponding keywords were still embedded in the image file or its sidecar file when you synched. Doing so read them in the file and added them to the catalog.

I can't emphasize enough how important it is to stop using the Details panel to manage your keywords. It's only causing you confusion. The entire process is best managed using the combination of Preference settings mentioned in my first paragraph that meets your needs and then using only the Assign panel or the Catalog tree itself as needed.

fbungarz
Posts: 1627
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Location: Arizona, USA

Re: How to purge labels from database?

Post by fbungarz » 30 Mar 16 17:58

I can't emphasize enough how important it is to stop using the Details panel to manage your keywords. It's only causing you confusion. The entire process is best managed using the combination of Preference settings mentioned in my first paragraph that meets your needs and then using only the Assign panel or the Catalog tree itself as needed.
Of course these keywords re-appear! That is because the labels are in the database and written to the files each time you sync. Removing them manually from the files achieves nothing! The labels are still in your database and will be written as keywords to the files the next time you sync!
Only revoking a label with the Assign panel will delete the keyword from the file AND the database! deleting the keyword in the file achieves nothing, because the label is still in your database!
Editing the catalog tree is very different. It is part of the database and a direct reflection of your label structure. Deleting a label there will completely remove that label from your database, deleting it from ALL images too, in the process thus also deleting that keyword.
I really do not know how to explain this anymore: it is very simple -
You have a database (idimager.cat.db). That database contains all information: the labels, ratings, color labels, image details metadata.
You can write that info to the files writing XMP metadata to the files.
When in-sync the data is in your files, else not.
removing keywords does NOT remove anything from your database!

snowman1
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Location: UK

Re: How to purge labels from database?

Post by snowman1 » 30 Mar 16 19:13

I have to agree, not understanding the basic mechanism of how the catalog and the metadata in the image file relate to each other, and how they are updated by events like a sync, is bound to end in tears.

This thread, back in the IDI days, explained it all. The diagram I posted back then has been removed at some point, but for info I have re-attached it below.

Forum member Lippe did a much more polished version for the idi Wiki that existed back then, if he is still around perhaps he still has that.

PLEASE NOTE: this is a very old diagram and the key strokes have changed between IDI and PSU. But the principle of synching is still the same; the red and green lines are what happen when you press CTL-S (under windows) in PSU to save metadata to the file.
Attachments
RS V001 v01b Idimager.jpg
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Snowman1
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tstoddard
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Joined: 07 Sep 12 12:51

Re: How to purge labels from database?

Post by tstoddard » 30 Mar 16 21:40

snowman1,

Your diagram is helpful but I believe Stephen's issues go far beyond just understanding what happens when metadata is written from the database to the files. The confusion is more related to the fact that there are multiple ways in which to modify the data that's in the database and it's not hard to create conflicts within the database itself. In Stephen's case, it seems that most of his issues are related to the fact that PSU allows you to configure labels that write metadata to fields that can also be modified manually using the details panel. It's not always easy to figure out how PSU is going to handle those conflicts.

In addition to that, the diagram doesn't address what happens in the other direction when files are imported or when metadata is read from files into the database. On import, PSU may create and configure labels based on data that is in the files. If the user doesn't realize what those label are configured to do and they modify data using the details panel, it's not hard to see how unexpected situations result.

Also, it's not perfectly clear how PSU handles metadata upon the revocation of labels. Once again, conflicts are possible. I understand why Stephen is having the difficulties he's having. I think Mike is right to suggest a more disciplined workflow using labels and avoiding the details panel. That would go a long way to help but still there are things that could go wrong.
Stephen wrote:Several labels which were 'historically' imported into the miscellaneous category are now haunting me and I cannot seem to remove them. They are allocated to certain images and when I open an image to update the labels, I remove the "write to keyword" designation if it is incorrect.

I then proceed to write the description of the image in the Details view and verify the keywords, deleting the incorrect ones. When I switch back to the Assign view, the deleted keywords have been reassigned as labels.
In Stephen's original post, he states that he reconfigures his labels to "not" write keywords. I can't say for sure, what will happen now, if he revokes those labels but, based on what he is saying here, it seems that he has never revoked the labels, which is why they are still there when he switches to the Assign panel. Stephen, the easiest way to remove a label from a file is to use the Assign Panel. Just click on the label that is assigned in the top of the Assign Panel and it will be revoked. If you want to remove that label from all files:
  • View your catalog by category
  • Select the label you want to remove (all files assigned to that label should now be in the collection viewer)
  • Select all images in the collection viewer
  • Go to the Assign Panel and find that label at the top where the assigned labels are listed and click on it
That should revoke it from all of the selected files. I believe the associated keyword will be removed from all of the files also (but maybe not if you've reconfigured the label to not write keywords since it was initially assigned).

I could be wrong, Stephen, and I often am, but from the statement above, I am guessing that you still don't have a good grasp of the difference between a "Label" and a "Keyword". A label doesn't have to be a keyword and not all keywords have to have associated labels. The default behavior is for labels to be written to files as keywords but, as you've learned, that is not always the case. Removing a keyword, whether in the details panel or by telling the label not to write keywords, does not revoke the label assignment. That label is still assigned to the file until you revoke it (using the assign panel) or you delete the label itself. Labels are a construct of the database. Keywords are just text that is written to the files. It is confusing because the Keyword is usually the same as the name of the Label. This leads many to consider a label to be the same as the keyword. I know that I was often guilty of using label and keyword interchangeably when I first started posting messages here.

I hope you're clear on that.

Also,
Stephen wrote:But I still use the Details panel to write the description (where else)
You can write descriptions, headings, and titles in the Information Panel.
Tom Stoddard

snowman1
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Location: UK

Re: How to purge labels from database?

Post by snowman1 » 30 Mar 16 23:24

Tom, I don't disagree with what you say. But it doesn't invalidate what Frank said. A basic understanding of where the data lives is necessary before you can start thinking properly about what affects the data in each location. And without understanding where the data lives one will struggle to understand what the panels are showing.

The diagram (which I fully accept is poor and old, rather like myself :mrgreen: - it was only ever drawn for my use as a reminder and shared simply in case it might help anyone) should assist because it shows how the catalog data, containing data on what labels are assigned to an image, is separate from the xmp data; and how the labels reach the XMP by being converted into keywords (subject to settings). The labels are manipulated with the label assign panel, and is the reason why that panel should be used to master image labels. This data is only written to the XMP block in the database, and thence the image file itself, upon syncing. And the details panel shows the keywords from the XMP data, that have been generated by the sync processing as shown on the diagram.

(In fact it might be nice to have a diagram that also showed the panels - showing the label assignment panel mapping to the top left block, and the image details panel to the bottom left box.)

As you say, and as Frank was addressing, Stephen might still not have a good grasp of the difference between a "Label" and a "Keyword"", which is all tied in with the above.

Of course you are correct in saying it only depicts what happens upon writing metadata and not what happens when reading it back in from the image file; but (a) once one has understood the flow of data in the write direction it is not too hard to imagine the read direction; (b) writing is the more common use case (unless you have manipulated the metadata externally and wish to "import" those changes back into PSU) and (c) the reading is heavily impacted - as you say - by the various sync settings, not only for how data is read, but for how it was written out in the first place - hard to depict on a diagram. The help files do explain something of that, and of course many forum threads.

Hopefully this info can only help Stephen and others!
Snowman1
http://www.flickr.com/photos/snowman-1/
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PhilBurton
Posts: 307
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Location: CA, USA

Re: How to purge labels from database?

Post by PhilBurton » 30 Mar 16 23:28

tstoddard wrote:snowman1,

I could be wrong, Stephen, and I often am, but from the statement above, I am guessing that you still don't have a good grasp of the difference between a "Label" and a "Keyword". A label doesn't have to be a keyword and not all keywords have to have associated labels. The default behavior is for labels to be written to files as keywords but, as you've learned, that is not always the case. Removing a keyword, whether in the details panel or by telling the label not to write keywords, does not revoke the label assignment. That label is still assigned to the file until you revoke it (using the assign panel) or you delete the label itself. Labels are a construct of the database. Keywords are just text that is written to the files. It is confusing because the Keyword is usually the same as the name of the Label. This leads many to consider a label to be the same as the keyword. I know that I was often guilty of using label and keyword interchangeably when I first started posting messages here.

I hope you're clear on that.

You can write descriptions, headings, and titles in the Information Panel.
Tom,

I * thought * I was clear on labels and keywords, but not now. When and how is a label not used for a keyword?

Phil
Photo Supreme user
Home built i7 3930, 32 GB RAM, Win 10 Pro 64, latest version of Photo Supreme 3, Lightroom 6 and Photoshop CS 6 (perpetual licenses)

snowman1
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Location: UK

Re: How to purge labels from database?

Post by snowman1 » 31 Mar 16 0:47

You can select "do not not modify keywords" in preferences > synchronise settings > keyword processing. Or just not sync. But normally they would be.
Snowman1
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PhilBurton
Posts: 307
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Location: CA, USA

Re: How to purge labels from database?

Post by PhilBurton » 31 Mar 16 1:26

snowman1 wrote:You can select "do not not modify keywords" in preferences > synchronise settings > keyword processing. Or just not sync. But normally they would be.
Snowman1,

Thanks. What I was wondering about is, "If a label is not a keyword, what is it?"

Phil
Photo Supreme user
Home built i7 3930, 32 GB RAM, Win 10 Pro 64, latest version of Photo Supreme 3, Lightroom 6 and Photoshop CS 6 (perpetual licenses)

tstoddard
Posts: 578
Joined: 07 Sep 12 12:51

Re: How to purge labels from database?

Post by tstoddard » 31 Mar 16 1:39

PhilBurton wrote:I * thought * I was clear on labels and keywords, but not now. When and how is a label not used for a keyword?
Phil,

I'm surprised you caught that. I didn't expect anyone to notice it. I should know better in this forum.

The way to get something other than the label's name to be written as a keyword is to set the label to "do not create keyword for this label" in the label's metadata settings but then also have it apply a detail profile that writes something else to the dc:subject field.
Tom Stoddard

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