Can't get versioning right (NEF+JPG of same filename)

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fbungarz
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Re: Can't get versioning right (NEF+JPG of same filename)

Post by fbungarz » 31 Mar 16 16:12

aka Marcel Proust...
I am not offended. :wink:
Admittedly, I sometimes tend to ramble a bit...

Stephen
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Re: Can't get versioning right (NEF+JPG of same filename)

Post by Stephen » 31 Mar 16 19:44

Sometimes?
Actually, it was a compliment. That tendency is bound with the character of a person and we are all different, thank goodness :-)
BTW, is there a bookmarking function here, because I sincerely would like to be able to refer to that posting again?
Never say never change, but using Mac since 2005. Photo Supreme 3.3.0.2605. I endorse the interoperability of files between applications and systems.

snowman1
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Re: Can't get versioning right (NEF+JPG of same filename)

Post by snowman1 » 31 Mar 16 20:12

yep - click on that little spanner icon down the bottom left.
Snowman1
http://www.flickr.com/photos/snowman-1/
--------------------------------------

vlad
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Re: Can't get versioning right (NEF+JPG of same filename)

Post by vlad » 02 Apr 16 11:41

tstoddard wrote: Frank, I don't see why this wouldn't address triplets. The proposed parameter says "MatchMultipleExtensions". I assume that Vlad's intent would be for the numbering to match for any number of files that have the same name but different extensions. His example doesn't illustrate that and probably should so that there is no question as to his intent, but the name of the parameter does infer that it would handle triplets like yours.
That is correct. The proposed parameter would concern any tuple recognized by PSU, not just pairs.
By the way, PSU already does this for sidecar files like xmp files so it is certainly capable of doing it for other extensions.
Sidecar files are a bit different, because PSU ensures there is a xmp file for every RAW image (i.e, there's no need to take in account the input sidecar file names for renaming), while the imported images of different formats do not consistently come in pairs (or triplets/tuples/whatever).
One question I would have is whether or not this would impact the way in which files are sorted when they get renamed.
In other words, would PSU have to resort files by name in order to implement this.
Good questions, but I don't think the user visible sort order would be impacted. If you are asking "would PSU have to resort files by name" internally, as part of the importing and renaming procedure, then here is my answer: I don't know and it doesn't matter, as it's an implementation aspect (for Hert to figure out). By design, the importing procedure can already find pairs or tuples with matching names (for versioning purposes) - all I'm suggesting is a setting to take into account such matching input names during renaming. (Btw, I would consider entirely reasonable if the pair/triplet/tuplet detection for renaming purposes was subject to the very same restrictions imposed by version detection: the matching input files must be present in the same folder or in parallel sub-folders, etc.; if some restrictions get relaxed for version detection, they could be relaxed for renaming too.)
Personally, it wouldn't matter to me but since you are using a sequential numbering scheme, the order of the files being renamed will affect the final name of those files. I'm not sure how that works now but I imagine somebody somewhere cares about the order that their files are in when they are being renamed using sequential numbers.
That is correct.
Phil, I imagine that what you are describing is PSU treating wav files as sidecar files or companion files. I'm not at home now to look at it but is that something that is configurable? Can you tell PSU what file extensions to consider as companion files?
Tom, Phil: I am also curious about such aspects, although I'm not familiar with the concept of "companion files". (Does it appear anywhere in the Supreme doc?)
Phil, let me (re)ask some questions: how are wav files handled by Photo Supreme? Do you see wav thumbs in the collection viewer? If not, what can you do with the wav's inside Supreme? Do you store metadata for them?
Stephen wrote:My comment is sincere and the points made by Frank are very valid! A powerful database like PSu must be flexible enough to encompass needs which differ from the 'norm' and acknowledge user imperfection! Otherwise they would be marketed by Adobe ;-)
I largely agree with Frank and Stephen.

Cheers,
Vlad

P.S. Frank, I wish you a quick healing of your twisted ankle.

PhilBurton
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Re: Can't get versioning right (NEF+JPG of same filename)

Post by PhilBurton » 03 Apr 16 0:40

vlad wrote: That is correct.
Phil, I imagine that what you are describing is PSU treating wav files as sidecar files or companion files. I'm not at home now to look at it but is that something that is configurable? Can you tell PSU what file extensions to consider as companion files?
Tom, Phil: I am also curious about such aspects, although I'm not familiar with the concept of "companion files". (Does it appear anywhere in the Supreme doc?)
Phil, let me (re)ask some questions: how are wav files handled by Photo Supreme? Do you see wav thumbs in the collection viewer? If not, what can you do with the wav's inside Supreme? Do you store metadata for them?

Cheers,
Vlad

P.S. Frank, I wish you a quick healing of your twisted ankle.
Vlad,
Photo Supreme does properly rename a WAV file with an associated NEF or JPG. However, I can't see the WAVs in the collection views.

For me, WAV files are generated by my Nikon D3's "voice memo" feature, which allows me to record up to 30 seconds of speech. I use voice memos as a notebook substitute, so the voice memo would be info about the subject. When I am adding metadata for an image, I will listen to the WAV file and then discard it. In other words, the WAV is not a "digital asset" in of itself. It's like a "sidecar" but without long-term value.

Did I explain this clearly?

Phil
Photo Supreme user
Home built i7 3930, 32 GB RAM, Win 10 Pro 64, latest version of Photo Supreme 3, Lightroom 6 and Photoshop CS 6 (perpetual licenses)

Mike Buckley
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Re: Can't get versioning right (NEF+JPG of same filename)

Post by Mike Buckley » 03 Apr 16 14:52

Does Supreme indicate on the thumbnail of the image file or anywhere that a corresponding WAV file exists?

PhilBurton
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Re: Can't get versioning right (NEF+JPG of same filename)

Post by PhilBurton » 03 Apr 16 19:49

Mike Buckley wrote:Does Supreme indicate on the thumbnail of the image file or anywhere that a corresponding WAV file exists?
Not that I noticed, but I might have missed something. However, I will be glad to post a screenshot. Do I do that using the Img button?

Phil
Photo Supreme user
Home built i7 3930, 32 GB RAM, Win 10 Pro 64, latest version of Photo Supreme 3, Lightroom 6 and Photoshop CS 6 (perpetual licenses)

jstartin
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Re: Can't get versioning right (NEF+JPG of same filename)

Post by jstartin » 03 Apr 16 23:13

It may save a someone a little time to note that, as far as I know, no change to the handling of .WAV files has been documented since this 2013 thread http://forum.idimager.com/viewtopic.php ... av#p103809
Jim (Photo Supreme: AMD Quad-Core A8-5500 Accelerated Processor 3.2 GHz; SSD; 16GB DDR3 SDRAM; Win10x64)

Mike Buckley
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Re: Can't get versioning right (NEF+JPG of same filename)

Post by Mike Buckley » 03 Apr 16 23:51

Jim's link provides the answer to the question. If I was using WAV files, it would be especially helpful for the presence of the file to be displayed on the thumbnail and to be able to play the WAV file from within Supreme. That was how IDimager worked and I'm surprised that neither of those capabilities is in the third version of Supreme.

fbungarz
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Re: Can't get versioning right (NEF+JPG of same filename)

Post by fbungarz » 04 Apr 16 0:53

Hi Mike - I am surprised you are surprised. We both know that a lot of things did not make it into PSu. I suspect it is part of a policy to keep the the look and feel of the program sleek and minimalist.
That said, I would not be surprised if an icon that shows if a WAV file is present could be added via CustomThumbsInfo. Michael Weidner on his site (http://www.senoiaphoto.com/psu) provides a sleek example of a script that shows which software has been used to edit a file and whether the image has GPS data. Something similar might be able to show if a WAV-sidecar is present or not.
Unfortunately I am completely useless at writing even the most simple scripts. So, don't ask me :wink:

vlad
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Re: Can't get versioning right (NEF+JPG of same filename)

Post by vlad » 04 Apr 16 9:56

Phil: thanks for the explanations, which are now clear (thanks to Jim's pointer too). Based on these explanations, I agree it's quite appropriate to refer to a wav file as a companion file. But I also agree that having no indication of such companion files in the visual interface is sub-optimal, although it simplifies PSU's internal design. (If I understand correctly, companion WAV files are treated exactly like XMP sidecar files, as far as file operations (copying, moving, renaming) are concerned.)

Getting back to the original topic (renaming and versioning of image tuples):

I guess WAV files are renamed exactly like the associated image files by virtue of their special status, independent of the actual renaming rule. For RAW and JPG files (as well as for any other supported format, such as DNG), the macro commands allow image files of different extensions to be independently renamed (see the optional ID parameter of %ImageNumber). Therefore, for image pairs or triplets to always be renamed consistently (by design), I guess the support for the ID parameter would need to be removed. And the implications to that are not clear to me. Does anyone use the ID parameter set to anything else other than %FileExtension (which is just a partial and fragile workaround for consistent renaming)? If yes, then what is your renaming rule and what is your use case?

tstoddard
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Re: Can't get versioning right (NEF+JPG of same filename)

Post by tstoddard » 04 Apr 16 23:08

vlad wrote:For RAW and JPG files (as well as for any other supported format, such as DNG), the macro commands allow image files of different extensions to be independently renamed (see the optional ID parameter of %ImageNumber). Therefore, for image pairs or triplets to always be renamed consistently (by design), I guess the support for the ID parameter would need to be removed.
vlad,

I don't think the ID parameter would necessarily have to be removed but it definitely could conflict if it were specified at the same time as your proposed parameter. PSU would either have to ignore one of the parameters or make allowances for implementing both. The ID parameter is a rather obscure one, evidenced by the fact that the renaming panel doesn't give the user any way of specifying that parameter. The only reason I knew about it is because I looked it up in the Macro documentation. However, I can see how it could be useful to some folks for various reasons and it would be a shame to take it away to accommodate functionality that many people may never use.
Tom Stoddard

PhilBurton
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Re: Can't get versioning right (NEF+JPG of same filename)

Post by PhilBurton » 05 Apr 16 0:49

So there have been 72 posts in this thread so far. Second highest number of posts in any thread since the beginning of 2014. The highest number of posts in any one thread is 88, http://forum.idimager.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=23784, Capture One Edits. If Hert uses these forums to help decide which features to add to Photo Supreme, my guess is that he is thinking about this issue.

So let's make it easier on Hert. I'm going to write up my idea of the requirement here, in terms of the results I'm seeking. I'll let Hert decide on the method of implementation. Please add/subtract/edit this writeup. Then we can give Hert just one message to read, that represents a consensus of all of us:

I want PSu to consider all image files (RAW, JPG, TIFF, plus XMP, WAV, TXT and DOC(X) (Microsoft Word) ) to be the same image IF the filename is the same and if the file create date is the same. The scope of this requirement is (1) import, (2) renaming, (3) thumbnail, (4) metadata read and write or synchronization, (5) cataloging, (6) versioning.

In the collection view, I want to be able to toggle the display between one thumbnail for the image vs separate thumbnails for each separate file, including WAV, TXT, and DOC(X).

For files with the same image creation date, but a different file data because of editing e.g. JPG or PSD, I would like PSu to give me a choice as to whether the edited file belongs with all the unedited files as one name.


Just wondering, should we start a new thread here?

Phil
Photo Supreme user
Home built i7 3930, 32 GB RAM, Win 10 Pro 64, latest version of Photo Supreme 3, Lightroom 6 and Photoshop CS 6 (perpetual licenses)

Mike Buckley
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Re: Can't get versioning right (NEF+JPG of same filename)

Post by Mike Buckley » 05 Apr 16 4:34

The number of posts in a thread is meaningless; the large number of posts in this or any thread speaks more to the appeal of the people desiring to participate in the forum as part of their hobby than for an apparent need for a change in Supreme.

fbungarz
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Re: Can't get versioning right (NEF+JPG of same filename)

Post by fbungarz » 05 Apr 16 7:56

Hi Phil,
good idea to summarize all this, though I would come to a rather different conclusion:

I certainly do not want to have PSu treat ANY files as one!

I believe our discussion so far highlights two principal aspects for improvement:

(1) better handling of versions / improved detection
There have been many discussions on this topic already. Here we have discussed mainly that the current renaming rules are not flexible enough to correctly detect pairs (triplets, etc.) and rename them together using the same image count. Vlad explained that this deficiency could be addressed by introducing an additional renaming rule. His suggestion does not address my point that emphasizes the need extend version detection during import not only to image pairs (straight from the camera), but also to legacy files.
I think this request is different from your suggestion: I do not want these files that obviously belong together treated as one. I want to be able to manage and use image files (RAWs, JPGs, TIFFs, etc.) separate, but have PSu recognize more efficiently, which ones belong together.

(2) better sidecar file support
Currently PSu detects sidecar files associated with their main file and like Windows essentially treats them as one. This is quite different from treating the image files as versions (i.e., treating them as separate files that belong together). For XMP sidecars this is no issue. PSu reads the metadata from these files and presents them as the data associated with the main image file. [a note aside: I wonder what happens if you have these files though: 123.nef+123.xmp & 123.png+123.xmp --- how can PSu know which 123.xmp belongs to which main file?]
For WAV files the situation is different. Though PSu treats these files as one with the main image file (just like the operating system does), the user has no means of knowing if this particular sidecar file is there or not. The XMP data can be read by PSu and if the XMP sidecar of the main file does not exist the metadata of the main raw file are shown as empty. There is no way to know if a WAV file is there and thus no straightforward way to listen to this sound file associated with a main image file. I pointed out that this could to some extent perhaps be addressed by CustomThumbInfo, but a better option would be a little loudspeaker button with the ability also to listen to the WAV file.

Now, this has gotten too long again; my short summary (could be posted as brief Mantis requests):
(1) additional renaming rule (Vlad's rule)
(2) add loudspeaker button to play WAV-files.

Cheers,
Frank

PS: regarding version detection - one could add quite a few more suggestions, but this has been discussed exhaustively elsewhere and I guess requests have a higher chance of getting implemented if kept simple and straightforward. Hert once told me to better keep my requests "atomic".

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