Can't get versioning right (NEF+JPG of same filename)

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PhilBurton
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Can't get versioning right (NEF+JPG of same filename)

Post by PhilBurton » 23 Mar 16 3:07

So I'm still learning PSu, and i'm still "catching up" importing my digital photo library into PSu.

Up to now, i've been importing only NEFs and filing them by date and renaming by date. My folder structure is \Photo\yyyy\mm\dd and my filenames are yyyymmdd-0000. This has always worked up to now. If the NEF had a corresponding WAV file (voice memo generated on my Nikon D3), that got renamed properly.

So yesterday for the first time I imported images that were both NEF and JPG. This time, PSu treated the NEF and the JPG as separate images. I think this is related to versioning. In the Import dialog, under advanced settings, I checked the Apply Versioning box and the rule is RAW As Main Version. What did I do wrong, or not do?

Also, at times, I have created image logs in the form of TXT, DOC, or DOCX. I added these types under File Handling, so they import OK, but these files are also treated as separate images, not as additional files associated with the same renamed image. Same question as above.

If there is documentation, just point me to it. I did read through the QuickStart guides. If there is no documentation, can someone explain this to me.

I realize that i am still a n00b compared with guys like Vlad or Frank, but everyone has to start someplace.

Thanks, Phil
Photo Supreme user
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Mike Buckley
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Re: Can't get versioning right (NEF+JPG of same filename)

Post by Mike Buckley » 23 Mar 16 4:40

You didn't do anything wrong. The NEF and JPG files are image files, so Supreme will treat them as separate files whether or not you version them. That's what is supposed to happen. The two image files should have been versioned and the RAW should have become the Main version in accordance with your configuration.

Sorry, but I don't know anything about the treatment of the other file formats you mentioned but I'm not surprised that they were treated as you explained. If you were thinking that they or the JPEG file should be treated like an XMP file that isn't displayed by Supreme, your expectation is incorrect. More important, I would think you would want Supreme to treat all of the file formats other than XMP files as separate files that can be displayed within Supreme.

vlad
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Re: Can't get versioning right (NEF+JPG of same filename)

Post by vlad » 23 Mar 16 8:29

Hello Phil,

Do your thumbnails display * and 1 in the top right? If they do, then your images were most likely versioned correctly and you will see only the main versions displayed in certain views, such as By Category.

Do you expect TXT, DOC and DOCX files to be treated as versions too? If yes, do their names match the RAW and JPG file names? Are they stored in the same folder?

Regards,
Vlad

fbungarz
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Re: Can't get versioning right (NEF+JPG of same filename)

Post by fbungarz » 23 Mar 16 11:12

Hi Phil,
as Vlad points out the objective of managing versions is not to hide everything but the main version.
I think your confusion is probably in part a result of the way versions that belong to the same version set are displayed in PSu: sometimes images are displayed separately, sometimes only the main version is displayed, the others that are part of the same set only hinted at by the tiny tabs.
That policy can be confusing and I personally would be much in favor of more flexible options for version display (see http://forum.idimager.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=24115).
However, there is a certain logic behind how this currently is implemented. Basically, versions are currently displayed separately where one would commonly expect to see all files. A good examples are the catalog folders. In the folders you most commonly would want to see all files, nothing hidden per default. If you want you can filter out files you do not want, e.g. only display the main version.
In the Catalog categories, i.e., the label tree such a display of all separate files does make less sense. Here typically only the main version gets displayed, because a label generally equally applies to all versions of a set. There are also some views, where necessarily only a particular version gets displayed. For example "sync status": one version of a set might be in snyc, the other one not. So, of course you would only be the one out-of-sync be displayed in that category...

Now, there are a few places in PSu where I would prefer more flexibility, particularly inside Portfolios and their Collections. Collections are containers for files grouped together for a particular purpose. Versions often also serve a particular purpose, for example the print version for printing, a raw version to be developed using a raw converter, et., etc.
Here now it would be very convenient to be able to quickly filter the version that I need. This currently does not work well, thus my porposal for more flexibility. There is also a long discussion about this at http://mantis.idimager.com/view.php?id=2525#c6142 (don't dig through everything there, read Vlad's summary...).

Cheers,
Frank

PhilBurton
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Re: Can't get versioning right (NEF+JPG of same filename)

Post by PhilBurton » 23 Mar 16 17:24

Mike Buckley wrote:You didn't do anything wrong. The NEF and JPG files are image files, so Supreme will treat them as separate files whether or not you version them. That's what is supposed to happen.
Uh, "supposed to" may mean that PSu was designed to work this way, and the software properly implements the design.

However, and this is a big however. In Lightroom, which I use as my RAW editor, a JFG and an NEF with the same name are treated as one image. With Lightroom, you never touch the RAW, except as input. You create one or more TIFFs or JPGs to publish in various formats. This approach is how I expected PSu to work. Since that is not how PSu was designed, I have to rethink my entire workflow.

My workflow has been to import, rename files, apply metadata and geo-tag, and only then, to inport into Lightroom for editing. Now I will probably have to use Lightroom for import and renaming, then catalog the renamed files in PSu and add metadata, etc., and then go back to Lightroom. Ugly.
The two image files should have been versioned and the RAW should have become the Main version in accordance with your configuration.

Sorry, but I don't know anything about the treatment of the other file formats you mentioned but I'm not surprised that they were treated as you explained. If you were thinking that they or the JPEG file should be treated like an XMP file that isn't displayed by Supreme, your expectation is incorrect. More important, I would think you would want Supreme to treat all of the file formats other than XMP files as separate files that can be displayed within Supreme.
If I use a TXT or DOC file to capture metadata, just as I could use a WAV file, then I would want that TXT or DOC be an "auxiliary" file for the image, like the XMP. As part of adding metadata, I delete WAV files.
Photo Supreme user
Home built i7 3930, 32 GB RAM, Win 10 Pro 64, latest version of Photo Supreme 3, Lightroom 6 and Photoshop CS 6 (perpetual licenses)

PhilBurton
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Location: CA, USA

Re: Can't get versioning right (NEF+JPG of same filename)

Post by PhilBurton » 23 Mar 16 17:27

vlad wrote:Hello Phil,

Do your thumbnails display * and 1 in the top right? If they do, then your images were most likely versioned correctly and you will see only the main versions displayed in certain views, such as By Category.

Do you expect TXT, DOC and DOCX files to be treated as versions too? If yes, do their names match the RAW and JPG file names? Are they stored in the same folder?

Regards,
Vlad
Vlad,

My thumbnails do not display the * and 1 in the top right, but I'm not going to worry about that just now. Or it may be that the overall design of PSu means that I can't use PSu for versioning, which is very disappointing, but it is what it is.

Phil
Photo Supreme user
Home built i7 3930, 32 GB RAM, Win 10 Pro 64, latest version of Photo Supreme 3, Lightroom 6 and Photoshop CS 6 (perpetual licenses)

PhilBurton
Posts: 307
Joined: 12 Sep 10 18:47
Location: CA, USA

Re: Can't get versioning right (NEF+JPG of same filename)

Post by PhilBurton » 23 Mar 16 17:29

fbungarz wrote:Hi Phil,
as Vlad points out the objective of managing versions is not to hide everything but the main version.
I think your confusion is probably in part a result of the way versions that belong to the same version set are displayed in PSu: sometimes images are displayed separately, sometimes only the main version is displayed, the others that are part of the same set only hinted at by the tiny tabs.
That policy can be confusing and I personally would be much in favor of more flexible options for version display (see http://forum.idimager.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=24115).
However, there is a certain logic behind how this currently is implemented. Basically, versions are currently displayed separately where one would commonly expect to see all files. A good examples are the catalog folders. In the folders you most commonly would want to see all files, nothing hidden per default. If you want you can filter out files you do not want, e.g. only display the main version.
In the Catalog categories, i.e., the label tree such a display of all separate files does make less sense. Here typically only the main version gets displayed, because a label generally equally applies to all versions of a set. There are also some views, where necessarily only a particular version gets displayed. For example "sync status": one version of a set might be in snyc, the other one not. So, of course you would only be the one out-of-sync be displayed in that category...

Now, there are a few places in PSu where I would prefer more flexibility, particularly inside Portfolios and their Collections. Collections are containers for files grouped together for a particular purpose. Versions often also serve a particular purpose, for example the print version for printing, a raw version to be developed using a raw converter, et., etc.
Here now it would be very convenient to be able to quickly filter the version that I need. This currently does not work well, thus my porposal for more flexibility. There is also a long discussion about this at http://mantis.idimager.com/view.php?id=2525#c6142 (don't dig through everything there, read Vlad's summary...).

Cheers,
Frank
Frank,

I appreciate your explanations here, but right now I'm going to save this thread for future reference. I guess I could submit a Mantis ticket on this issue, but I do have a workaround and there are plenty of Mantis requests for truly new functionality.

Phil
Photo Supreme user
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Mike Buckley
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Re: Can't get versioning right (NEF+JPG of same filename)

Post by Mike Buckley » 23 Mar 16 18:10

PhilBurton wrote: My thumbnails do not display the * and 1 in the top right
To be clear about that, each versioned thumbnail should display very small tabs along the top right side of the thumbail. The top tab will display the * to indicate the Main version and the other tab(s) display a sequential number indicating all of the sub versions. If your thumbnails do not display those tabs, they were not versioned. In that situation, something went wrong with either your import configurations or with the import process itself.

Mike Buckley
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Joined: 10 Jul 08 14:18

Re: Can't get versioning right (NEF+JPG of same filename)

Post by Mike Buckley » 23 Mar 16 18:24

Phil,

There are so many people using both Lightroom and Supreme that you might want to start a thread asking about their workflow when using Supreme to version files.

PhilBurton
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Location: CA, USA

Re: Can't get versioning right (NEF+JPG of same filename)

Post by PhilBurton » 23 Mar 16 19:45

Mike Buckley wrote:
PhilBurton wrote: My thumbnails do not display the * and 1 in the top right
To be clear about that, each versioned thumbnail should display very small tabs along the top right side of the thumbail. The top tab will display the * to indicate the Main version and the other tab(s) display a sequential number indicating all of the sub versions. If your thumbnails do not display those tabs, they were not versioned. In that situation, something went wrong with either your import configurations or with the import process itself.
Mike,

I agree with you that something went wrong, and versioning was not done. However, if PSu versioning doesn't work for me because of the way images are named and numbered, then I will put that problem lower down on my list of issues.

Phil
Photo Supreme user
Home built i7 3930, 32 GB RAM, Win 10 Pro 64, latest version of Photo Supreme 3, Lightroom 6 and Photoshop CS 6 (perpetual licenses)

PhilBurton
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Location: CA, USA

If you use Lightroom, how do you use PSu versioning?

Post by PhilBurton » 23 Mar 16 19:51

Mike Buckley wrote:Phil,

There are so many people using both Lightroom and Supreme that you might want to start a thread asking about their workflow when using Supreme to version files.
I'm starting a separate thread at Mike's suggestion. The issue for me is that if I have a JPG and an NEF of the same image, Lightroom treats these files as one image, but PSu treats these as two separate images, e.g.

Image-0001.NEF
Image-0002.JPG

So if you are also a Lightroom user, how do you deal with this issue?

Phil
Photo Supreme user
Home built i7 3930, 32 GB RAM, Win 10 Pro 64, latest version of Photo Supreme 3, Lightroom 6 and Photoshop CS 6 (perpetual licenses)

Mike Buckley
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Re: Can't get versioning right (NEF+JPG of same filename)

Post by Mike Buckley » 23 Mar 16 20:14

Ahhhhhhhhh. Now that I see your file names, I have an educated guess as to what is happening. You probably are renaming your image files during the import process, so when you say that Supreme treats the NEF and JPG separately, you are also saying that you would prefer the pairs of file names to be as follows:

Image-0001.NEF
Image-0001.JPG

Image-0002.NEF
Image-0002.JPG

Before going any further, do I understand you correctly? If so, please provide your renaming rule ideally by providing a screen shot. EDIT: If that is indeed your issue, be comforted to know that there is an easy workaround if not an outright solution.

PhilBurton
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Location: CA, USA

Re: Can't get versioning right (NEF+JPG of same filename)

Post by PhilBurton » 23 Mar 16 22:57

Mike,

Your example shows that you do understand me correctly. Here is my renaming rule, which was generated automatically using custom-defined rules for creating folders and renaming files, all during import:

%yyyy%mm%dd_%ImageNumber{offset=1;length=4;increment=1;reset=date}.%FileExtension

Phil
Photo Supreme user
Home built i7 3930, 32 GB RAM, Win 10 Pro 64, latest version of Photo Supreme 3, Lightroom 6 and Photoshop CS 6 (perpetual licenses)

Mike Buckley
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Re: Can't get versioning right (NEF+JPG of same filename)

Post by Mike Buckley » 23 Mar 16 23:17

I've never imported NEFs and JPEGs of the same image. I'm in the middle of a shoot, so I can't stop right now to figure out a solution or to check the details of properly configuring the workaround. However, an easy workaround once you arrive at the proper details is to first import only the NEFs and then to separately import the JPEGs. To do that...

1. Open the Import tool. Select Mark None. Then select Mark NEFs. Import those files.
2. The following is the first part of the process I'm not sure about: Make note of the last sequential number used to name your NEFs.
3. Return to the Import tool. The following is the second part of the process I'm not sure about: Change the renaming rule's Reset parameter to When reaching the number. Configure that number to be the number you noted in Step 2.
4. Select Mark None. Then select Mark JPEGs. Import those files.

Naturally, try this using only a few test files and by sending them to an isolated test folder.

EDIT: I'm not sure what the ramifications are about then getting those images properly versioned, but let's first work on getting the file names as you want them. I'm confident that they can then be properly versioned as a separate step.

PhilBurton
Posts: 307
Joined: 12 Sep 10 18:47
Location: CA, USA

Re: Can't get versioning right (NEF+JPG of same filename)

Post by PhilBurton » 24 Mar 16 1:09

Mike Buckley wrote:I've never imported NEFs and JPEGs of the same image. I'm in the middle of a shoot, so I can't stop right now to figure out a solution or to check the details of properly configuring the workaround. However, an easy workaround once you arrive at the proper details is to first import only the NEFs and then to separately import the JPEGs. To do that...

1. Open the Import tool. Select Mark None. Then select Mark NEFs. Import those files.
2. The following is the first part of the process I'm not sure about: Make note of the last sequential number used to name your NEFs.
3. Return to the Import tool. The following is the second part of the process I'm not sure about: Change the renaming rule's Reset parameter to When reaching the number. Configure that number to be the number you noted in Step 2.
4. Select Mark None. Then select Mark JPEGs. Import those files.

Naturally, try this using only a few test files and by sending them to an isolated test folder.

EDIT: I'm not sure what the ramifications are about then getting those images properly versioned, but let's first work on getting the file names as you want them. I'm confident that they can then be properly versioned as a separate step.
Mike,

Thanks. Sounds easy enough. I'm actually on a business trip, so it's pretty late here. I'll try this tomorrow or Friday, when I'm on the flight home.

Phil
Photo Supreme user
Home built i7 3930, 32 GB RAM, Win 10 Pro 64, latest version of Photo Supreme 3, Lightroom 6 and Photoshop CS 6 (perpetual licenses)

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