Capture One C1 v.9 users please

vlad
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Re: Capture One C1 v.9 users please

Post by vlad » 15 Mar 16 12:08

Did I understand correctly the suggestion to copy or cascade the lens and the focal length info? Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how that would work (without a custom script). Afaik, technical fields are not directly editable inside Supreme, therefore it would be logical (consistent) for those to not be "cascadable" either. (My guess is that version set cascading could have been designed to copy only the *modifiable* image details - maybe Hert or someone else could confirm or correct that.)

Hopefully, I'm not completely off mark here, since I'm not a C1 user and I only skimmed through the posts.

fbungarz
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Re: Capture One C1 v.9 users please

Post by fbungarz » 15 Mar 16 12:58

Vlad,
you may be right that this could be a reason why my workaround does not work! But if that is the case I must disagree with the argument that by design all technical data should generally be locked in PSu. It may be the case, but I don't think it is a reasonable policy.
Perhaps there is some justification that technical data in the Exif block or the makernotes should not generally be cascaded. BUT if they are part of the XMP then, in my opinion they should!
XMP by definition refers to metadata that should be accessible to edits. Yes, there are many technical data were editing should be somewhat restricted, but editing should generally be possible. An example where it even makes sense to not just edit XMP, but even Exif is the "Date Picture Taken". How often have you been abroad, even on a different continent and simply forgot to adjust your camera's clock and time zone settings?
As a further example, we already have had a discussion elsewhere about editing GPS data. The GPS panel allows editing this technical block of data and that makes perfect sense! The Details panel does not (which I personally find is a nuisance, though I can understand why Hert does not want anyone to mess with the data here).
So, here now might be a good example where a third party tool messes up technical XMP, and the user of PSu should be able to use PSu as a tool top fix that mess! That is part of good data management practices. Restricting access to particular fields to force users to have to use third party software like ExiFTool does not really make a lot of sense. Perhaps an option to unlock certain fields may be the best solution.

If you are right and this technical data does not cascade on purpose, then I would object to such a general policy! In the Details panel the fields could still be locked to avoid users accidentally mess with them, but there should be an option to cascade the full block of metadata (you already have a choice if you want to cascade ratings and color labels; imho IDI also allowed for direct file operation of cascading ALL metadata, in PSu that option has unfortunately been removed; for specific cases of metadata corruption it would make a lot of sense to add it again!).

Cheers,
Frank

sanphotgn
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Re: Capture One C1 v.9 users please

Post by sanphotgn » 15 Mar 16 13:17

vlad, I think you are absolutely on the mark. My copy and paste idea won't work. I thought the Technical section was available and it is not. (I export metadata to CSV and it is included in that feature.) And that would explain why the cascade doesn't work. Some of the fields in Technical are directly editable inside PSU, but Technical fields are probably treated the same.
Photo Supreme 3.3.0.2602 (64 bits) (Windows)

sanphotgn
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Re: Capture One C1 v.9 users please

Post by sanphotgn » 15 Mar 16 13:55

A very quick test. Copied a .jpg and gave it a new name (newname.jpg). Verify folder and created a version set in PSU. Main version: original.jpg. 1 version: newname.jpg. Exited PSU. Deleted all metadata in the newname.jpg with ExifTool. Open PSU. Verify folder. PSU recognized newname.jpg had changed. The Technical section does not contain any values for newname.jpg. (The original.jpg (main) has values in all the fields, except the GPS fields.) I cascaded the metadata from main to 1.

Only three fields are populated in Technical for newname.jpg after the cascade: ICC Profile (not editable), Orientation (editable), and Lens Information (editable).
fbungarz wrote:but there should be an option to cascade the full block of metadata (you already have a choice if you want to cascade ratings and color labels
I like this idea.
Photo Supreme 3.3.0.2602 (64 bits) (Windows)

Mike Buckley
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Re: Capture One C1 v.9 users please

Post by Mike Buckley » 15 Mar 16 14:17

fbungarz wrote:there should be an option to cascade the full block of metadata
It's understandable that the thought might have been that there would never be a reason to cascade certain metadata because two versions of the same file should already have the same certain metadata. Even so, the situation being discussed in this thread is a good example of when something should happen that doesn't happen.

If cascading the entire block is going to me made possible, it should also be made possible to copy and paste the entire block when using the Details panel to do that.
Last edited by Mike Buckley on 15 Mar 16 14:34, edited 1 time in total.

fbungarz
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Re: Capture One C1 v.9 users please

Post by fbungarz » 15 Mar 16 14:29

If cascading the entire block is going to me made possible, it should also be made possible to copy and paste the entire block when using the Details panel to do that.
Perhaps something for a feature request in Mantis with reference to the metadata corruption caused by C1.

I am personally interested in this too, because I have recently messed quite a bit with my metadata. When I noticed that my custom metadata was being messed up by PSu (see http://mantis.idimager.com/view.php?id=3014) I did a lot of troubleshooting deleting XMP with ExifTool, re-writing it with PSu. I still need to check if I inadvertently thus deleted technical metadata from the files. If so, cascading it back to the files might be an option to restore what might have got lost...

Cheers,
Frank

fbungarz
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Re: Capture One C1 v.9 users please

Post by fbungarz » 15 Mar 16 14:43

... I just looked at some of the files, where I used ExifTool to clear the metadata (troubleshooting how DarwinCore XMP was written to the files using PSu). Interestingly it seems that the "lens information" is one of the fields that got deleted. The NEFs and DNGs maintain that info, but it appears to have gone from the JPGs. And cascading does not bring it back!

It also seems that the Color Space and ICC profiles have been affected. Here the data are not deleted but files that should be AdobeRGB have sRGB written to them and some even have different entries in ICC Profile and Color space. sRGB in one field, AdobeRGB in the other. Strange...

sanphotgn
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Re: Capture One C1 v.9 users please

Post by sanphotgn » 15 Mar 16 15:43

I entered a feature request in Mantis: http://mantis.idimager.com/view.php?id=3016

I performed my same quick test in IDI and the Cascade all Exif worked.
Mike Buckley wrote:If cascading the entire block is going to me made possible, it should also be made possible to copy and paste the entire block when using the Details panel to do that.
Excellent point. Agreed. I will enter a similar request for the copy and paste on the Details Panel.
Photo Supreme 3.3.0.2602 (64 bits) (Windows)

fbungarz
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Re: Capture One C1 v.9 users please

Post by fbungarz » 15 Mar 16 15:45

I performed my same quick test in IDI and the Cascade all Exif worked.
Yes, t does work in IDI, t´hat's why I assumed (erroneously) it would work in PSu too...

Larry56
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Re: Capture One C1 v.9 users please

Post by Larry56 » 15 Mar 16 16:59

@fbungarz
Sorry I wasn't clear. I meant to say that Lightroom and Dxo both display the lens information, camera, ISO, etc. after processing in C1. However, in PSu all that is shown is the lens. PSu is does not display the camera, ISO, focal length, etc.

(When I Convert to XMP, Dxo will continue to show all the information but Lightroom is missing the lens information.)

I hope that is clearer.

vlad
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Re: Capture One C1 v.9 users please

Post by vlad » 18 Mar 16 12:10

No workaround has been found to date. You either get one part of the information or the other part, but not both!
Here is the uncertainty principle for photographic metadata... :)
sanphotgn wrote: Only three fields are populated in Technical for newname.jpg after the cascade: ICC Profile (not editable), Orientation (editable), and Lens Information (editable).
I don't immediately see a reason why these three particular fields are cascaded. I would have expected that either all or (preferably) none of the technical fields were cascaded.

In my opinion, technical metadata should not be made easy to paste or cascade (in other words: replace) by mistake. I have nothing against an additional option/action to cascade/paste technical info (including lens info), but the interface should demand explicit user requests rather than enabling technical metadata to be inadvertently propagated. (Personally, I applaud Hert's care in designing the Image Details such that most technical fields are either read-only or editable only via a specialized panel, as in the case of GPS coordinates.)

(Side question:
Do all of you use version sets to group together images derived from the same shot? That may be the most common use case, but I could imagine someone using a version set to group together images of the same subject, taken with different cameras and/or lenses, and possibly at different times and with different settings. You wouldn't want blanket cascading in such a case, right?)


For C1+PSU users desperate for a fix:

Unless I'm missing something, the manual "cascading" (copy-paste) of lens, focal length and/or any other metadata could already be achieved by employing the Export Metadata to CSV File (builtin function), followed by a metadata import via the Import CSV Data script. Now, before anyone complains that's not an easy peasy solution, here is a thought: you have a special requirement and that's best addressed by a special solution (workaround).

Imho, cascading custom info is a very good use case for writing and benefitting from a custom script. I know nothing (except the tiny bits I've learnt here) about C1 and its makers, but I'd consider that undertaking a far more practical exercise than pinning any hopes on the C1 developer getting finally persuaded (by whoever) to adjust the metadata handling. If a practical workaround is indeed achievable, then all discussions about whether C1 is at fault or not become mostly moot (in the context of Photo Supreme), imho.

sanphotgn
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Re: Capture One C1 v.9 users please

Post by sanphotgn » 18 Mar 16 13:46

vlad wrote:Unless I'm missing something, the manual "cascading" (copy-paste) of lens, focal length and/or any other metadata could already be achieved by employing the Export Metadata to CSV File (builtin function), followed by a metadata import via the Import CSV Data script.
Excellent idea. Works.

The export will automatically contain the file path and file name for the image(s) you are exporting from. Two ways to modify this before importing. (There are probably more.) If your versions have a standard file name structure (original: _85F8715.CR2; version: _85F8715-01.jpg), a find / replace within the CSV file will replace the original file names with the version file names. If your versions do not have a standard file name structure, you can create a Custom Field on the Info Panel. Include the following as the field Definition (if you are using a Mac; adjust accordingly if any adjustment is needed): %FilePath\%FileName.%FileExtension. Then copy and paste this value into the CSV file before importing.
Photo Supreme 3.3.0.2602 (64 bits) (Windows)

vlad
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Re: Capture One C1 v.9 users please

Post by vlad » 18 Mar 16 14:35

If your versions do not have a standard file name structure, you can create a Custom Field on the Info Panel. Include the following as the field Definition (if you are using a Mac; adjust accordingly if any adjustment is needed): %FilePath\%FileName.%FileExtension. Then copy and paste this value into the CSV file before importing.
Alternatively, the following could also work: select all your target versions, then copy all their file names and paste them into the CSV file before importing. The complete file names could be produced either by exporting some CSV data for all those versions, or by running the following script: http://mantis.idimager.com/view.php?id=2808#c6387

Beware: unless the metadata values are identical for all images, it is essential to replace each source file name with the right target file name, therefore the order of generating the source and, respectively, the target file names must be exactly the same. My (untested) assumption is that could be achieved by sorting the images by name and then selecting the relevant images (first, the source versions, then the target versions) in exactly the same order.

Stephen
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Re: Capture One C1 v.9 users please

Post by Stephen » 18 Mar 16 19:18

A great discussion here, although I have merely flown over some parts (v. busy) and not understood others... ;-)
vlad wrote:(Side question:
Do all of you use version sets to group together images derived from the same shot? That may be the most common use case, but I could imagine someone using a version set to group together images of the same subject, taken with different cameras and/or lenses, and possibly at different times and with different settings. You wouldn't want blanket cascading in such a case, right?)
Thanks for asking. Here is somebody who does not cascade!
I have no idea, but would it not be possible to either replace or merge the data from the xmp sidecar file into the i.e. jpeg just imported?
This might dictate a few steps before a RAW files 'leaves' PSu for editing, like a forced writing of data somewhere!
Then on re-import a check-box available with a clear label (and maybe pop-up) to explain who it's for and under which situations.
Correct AND updated help screens would save many uncertainties and additional discussion in this forum. That concept may be below the expectations of certain experts. However, I presume that the majority of users are not such experts and may need continuing 'hand-holding' because their expertise is in other fields and they simply forget what buttons to click.
vlad wrote: For C1+PSU users desperate for a fix:
Imho, cascading custom info is a very good use case for writing and benefitting from a custom script. I know nothing (except the tiny bits I've learnt here) about C1 and its makers, but I'd consider that undertaking a far more practical exercise than pinning any hopes on the C1 developer getting finally persuaded (by whoever) to adjust the metadata handling. If a practical workaround is indeed achievable, then all discussions about whether C1 is at fault or not become mostly moot (in the context of Photo Supreme), imho.
I cannot agree more and PSu is useful in similar respects, being able to rename whole groups of files within its database, etc., etc.
Never say never change, but using Mac since 2005. Photo Supreme 3.3.0.2605. I endorse the interoperability of files between applications and systems.

NassauBoy
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Re: Capture One C1 v.9 users please

Post by NassauBoy » 18 Mar 16 20:04

HI All,

I just returned from a trip and will experiment again with this. I don't use the XMP sidecars so not sure if this made a difference in my experimenting. I also just upgraded to C1 9.1, my other testing was done in the prior version.

My method was (still experimenting) that I create a C1 Session, then import to that session, do some basic scrubbing of the files I want to keep/delete. Then import to PSu.

Im still leaning to doing most of my STAR and NUMBER ratings in C1. Then for the "selects" I export them as 100% JPG to the session Output Folder. Then import the entire session into PSu.
Late 2012 27" iMac 3.4Ghz i7: 32GB Ram: Internal SSD: External Promise R4 Thunderbolt 16TB Raid 5 (all Data)

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