question about GPS format

fbungarz
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question about GPS format

Post by fbungarz » 03 Feb 16 23:22

This may be a dumb question, but can anyone explain the formats in which PSu displays GPS coordinates?

Using a GPS I am quite familiar with two commonly used formats:
(1)
decimal degrees, e.g.,
latitude: -0.742651, longitude: -90.303543

(2)
and the same location as degrees, minutes, seconds.decimal seconds...
latitude: 1° 44' 33.54" S , longitude: 90° 18' 12.755" W

(3)
Now, in PSu the Geo Panel displays these coordinates in the "decimal" format, but in Image Details the format is quite different:
0,44.559042S
90,18.2125804W

I guess these are degrees with decimal minutes, the comma (,) used to denote the degree symbol (°)? Perhaps there is a technical reason, why the degree symbol (°) is not displayed:
0° 44.559042 S
90° 18.212580 W

Why does PSU not simply display consistently one format (e.g. decimal degrees) in both the Geo Panel and Image Details? Also, in the Geo Panel the fields can be edited, in Image Details they are locked. Why?

I am asking because I would like the "Import CSV Data.psc" script from the resource repository to import GPS data to images from a CSV file (http://scripts.idimager.com/cgi-bin/idi ... 29922d5dae) and am not sure which format to use...

Thanks,
Frank

vlad
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Joined: 01 Sep 08 15:20

Re: question about GPS format

Post by vlad » 04 Feb 16 0:11

fbungarz wrote: Now, in PSu the Geo Panel displays these coordinates in the "decimal" format, but in Image Details the format is quite different:
0,44.559042S
90,18.2125804W

I guess these are degrees with decimal minutes, the comma (,) used to denote the degree symbol (°)?
Yes, I guess so. That may actually be how the raw metadata looks like, as specified by the standard. (Not sure, I haven't checked.)
Perhaps there is a technical reason, why the degree symbol (°) is not displayed:
0° 44.559042 S
90° 18.212580 W

Why does PSU not simply display consistently one format (e.g. decimal degrees) in both the Geo Panel and Image Details?
Geo Panel is the dedicated panel for entering and displaying geo coordinates, therefore it makes sense to employ a user friendly format. The Image Details probably shows raw metadata (or something close).
Also, in the Geo Panel the fields can be edited, in Image Details they are locked. Why?
In the past, Hert stated that editing technical data is forbidden in order to avoid unexpected results. Why would you prefer to edit the GPS coordinates directly?
I am asking because I would like the "Import CSV Data.psc" script from the resource repository to import GPS data to images from a CSV file (http://scripts.idimager.com/cgi-bin/idi ... 29922d5dae) and am not sure which format to use...
Sorry, I can't confidently advise you here, but my (uneducated) guess would be that the Image Details format is expected.

fbungarz
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Re: question about GPS format

Post by fbungarz » 04 Feb 16 8:01

In the past, Hert stated that editing technical data is forbidden in order to avoid unexpected results. Why would you prefer to edit the GPS coordinates directly?
Quite simple - many of the photos I take are not ones in the field with GPS coordinates already embedded, but specimens with label data that include GPS coordinates. Those I can only enter manually (or, if the CSV import script works, perhaps from a CSV file - which makes sense for a large batch of image metadata, not for one or two photos, though...).

And:
Strictly speaking - if I am allowed tp edit those GPS coordinates in the Geo Panel, then there is no reason why Image details doesn't allow me to. Again this is a case of convenience. In Image Details I see all other specimen information and it is much easier thus to avoid data entry errors. I can immidiately see, if I entered the data into the correct file. Alongside I can then also enter relevant locality data for the specimen(s).
And finally: in Image Details I can delete GPS data, but why am I not allowed to change erroneous data?

For many other technical info (e.g. Exif Camara proprietary data) it makes much sense to "lock" editing, for GPS data it does not.
Yes, I guess so. That may actually be how the raw metadata looks like, as specified by the standard. (Not sure, I haven't checked.)
I guess, in that case the CSV would have to use this format? That means though, that one need to be careful with the kind of CSV (comma delimited!) as the separator (,) in the GPS data may cause import problems...

Mike Buckley
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Re: question about GPS format

Post by Mike Buckley » 04 Feb 16 12:24

fbungarz wrote:In Image Details I see all other specimen information and it is much easier thus to avoid data entry errors. I can immidiately see, if I entered the data into the correct file. Alongside I can then also enter relevant locality data for the specimen(s).
You could open two instances of Supreme. Use one to view Image Details and the other one to view the Geo Panel.

fbungarz
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Re: question about GPS format

Post by fbungarz » 04 Feb 16 13:28

Hi Mike,
You could open two instances of Supreme. Use one to view Image Details and the other one to view the Geo Panel.
I actually had this idea already a year ago: http://forum.idimager.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=23917
My main point/request back then was that I would really like to be able to open label assignment and image details also side-by-side.

Well, I have actually tried it out and it is quite a mess!

(1) Arranging the windows side-by-side is very difficult, almost impossible. One cannot hide the catalog or folders view from one instance, so re-sizing one window of the database to show only the Geo Panel or only the Details panel not possible. This means the two windows need to be carefully aligned, so that they overlap and do not display redundant parts side-by-side.
(2) Now, once you managed to arrange both windows so that you can see the relevant information, navigating from one image to the next becomes a real challenge. The two windows do not work synchronously. I select one image in one Window, in the other window a different one remains selected. So, the information in the Geo Panel changes, the one in the info panel of the next window, where a different image is selected does not! As a consequence the danger of accidentally entering the wrong information into a particular file is much higher than working with one single open instance of the database.
(3) Updating does not work across the database windows either. Actually I am not even sure what is happening, most likely this is only a refresh issue. If I use the Geo Panel to change the coordinates there, the other database window still shows the old coordinates. Only if I navigate in that window away from that image and then select it again to force a refresh the changed data appears to be displayed. It is a bit difficult to be certain of this though, because the coordinates in both panels are displayed in different formats and at least my brain is not fast enough to convert decimal degrees to degrees with decimal minutes "on the fly"...
(4) Performance is apparently affected too. Two versions of an 8GB database open side-by-side I am actually surprised that the performance drop is not more severe. The program performs notably slower, but this could be tolerable I guess.

In summary: the main issue is - I would like to see the map from the GPSPanel alongside with the other metadata referring to the location info of the photo of my specimen. Though opening two instances of the database side-by-side and carefully arranging both windows on the screen does that, navigating from one image to the next becomes a pain, much worse than switching back and forth between the two panels inside the same window.
So, this definitely is not a workaround :?

Thanks for the suggestion though...

Frank

vlad
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Joined: 01 Sep 08 15:20

Re: question about GPS format

Post by vlad » 04 Feb 16 15:53

fbungarz wrote:
In the past, Hert stated that editing technical data is forbidden in order to avoid unexpected results. Why would you prefer to edit the GPS coordinates directly?
Quite simple - many of the photos I take are not ones in the field with GPS coordinates already embedded, but specimens with label data that include GPS coordinates. Those I can only enter manually
That's what the Geo Tag panel is for. (You could also use the Geo section within Label details, if you want to tie a certain label to a certain location.)

Btw, are you aware of the Copy/Paste coordinates facility in the Geo Tag panel?
(or, if the CSV import script works, perhaps from a CSV file - which makes sense for a large batch of image metadata, not for one or two photos, though...).
Can't you use GPX tracks or some other file format directly supported via the Geo Tag panel? (Right tools for the right job...) {EDIT: I guess not, since your coordinates are not time synced, from what I understand...]

fbungarz
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Location: Galapagos, Ecuador

Re: question about GPS format

Post by fbungarz » 04 Feb 16 16:32

That's what the Geo Tag panel is for. (You could also use the Geo section within Label details, if you want to tie a certain label to a certain location.)
I know that I can tie a label to GPS coordinates. Still not what I need though. I would really like to be able to see my custom locality data fields alongside the GPS coordinates for each specimen... (ideally: being able to open GPS Panel and Image Details side-by-side; alternatively: being able to edit the data in the in Image Details).
Btw, are you aware of the Copy/Paste coordinates facility in the Geo Tag panel?
Yes, that works well, if at least one image has GPS data. A workaround is indeed enter the coordinates manually into one image. Copy the data, select all images to which the coordinates refer and apply the data...
{EDIT: I guess not, since your coordinates are not time synced, from what I understand...}
Nope, the majority of these specimens were collected well before GPS was even invented :wink:

It still would be very helpful to know, which format I must use for the CSV import script... (I should probably just try it out, but I made this mistake already once using the previous version of that script in IDI; I ended up with a bunch of files that contained corrupt GPS data; and corrupt Dates actually - using that script to batch embed dates is also a problem, there are so many different formats for dates, a lot worse than the different GPS formats).

vlad
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Re: question about GPS format

Post by vlad » 05 Feb 16 1:15

fbungarz wrote: I know that I can tie a label to GPS coordinates. Still not what I need though. I would really like to be able to see my custom locality data fields alongside the GPS coordinates for each specimen...
What is your "custom locality data"? At which point do you fill that in?
(ideally: being able to open GPS Panel and Image Details side-by-side; alternatively: being able to edit the data in the in Image Details).
Hmm... I understand the need to open GPS Panel and Image Details side-by-side, if you want to choose a map point (and then write its coordinates) based on some metadadata; but, for the alternative, how would you know which exact GPS coordinates to enter in the Details panel, just by looking at some other metadata field?
Btw, are you aware of the Copy/Paste coordinates facility in the Geo Tag panel?
Yes, that works well, if at least one image has GPS data. A workaround is indeed enter the coordinates manually into one image. Copy the data, select all images to which the coordinates refer and apply the data...
I still don't understand... Why do you need a workaround? Why can't you enter multiple coordinates at once for all the images (via the Geo Tag panel)?
It still would be very helpful to know, which format I must use for the CSV import script... (I should probably just try it out, but I made this mistake already once using the previous version of that script in IDI; I ended up with a bunch of files that contained corrupt GPS data; and corrupt Dates actually - using that script to batch embed dates is also a problem, there are so many different formats for dates, a lot worse than the different GPS formats).
Yeah, I can imagine how using that script for dates is asking for trouble... Not sure about GEO coordinates, it might be simpler... Still, don't make the problem (or solution) more complex than it needs to be. Could you a provide a brief example showing how you are able to nail down the GEO coordinates for some image (or specimen)?

fbungarz
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Joined: 08 Dec 06 5:03
Location: Galapagos, Ecuador

Re: question about GPS format

Post by fbungarz » 05 Feb 16 10:25

Hi Vlad,
What is your "custom locality data"? At which point do you fill that in?
Several custom XMP fields from the Darwin Core XMP in the Location section.
Hmm... I understand the need to open GPS Panel and Image Details side-by-side, if you want to choose a map point (and then write its coordinates) based on some metadata; but, for the alternative, how would you know which exact GPS coordinates to enter in the Details panel, just by looking at some other metadata field?
For many specimens I do not only take photos of the actual specimens, but photos of the labels too. So, I open the preview with the Image Detail tab open the DwC location section expanded and simply enter that info manually, then copy it to the photos of the specimens. Unfortunately I cannot enter/edit the data into the GPS fields though.
I wish screenshots were working, it would be easier to illustrate my workflow than to describe it.

Basically I am working with two sets of photos of specimens: When I visit a collection in some Natural History Museum, I take photos of the labels (and thus a record of the specimen data) and the specimens themselves. I then need to feed this data manually into the custom metadata fields.
When I go into the field to collect material I take photos of the specimens right there. Upon return all collection information for these specimens is entered into a database. From that database I can export a CSV. In PSU I now only have to enter some metadata that uniquely identifies to which specimen a particular image corresponds and then I can (in theory) use the CSV import script to import the collection data instead of manually having to enter them again.

These are the two basic scenarios. In the first case switching back between the GPS panel and Image Details is simply inconvenient. Entering the GPS data with the map right there is fantastic, but I need to then go back to Image Details to enter locality data - and there the format of the coordinates is quite different. Not ideal at all, can be quite confusing actually.

In the second scenario, all I ask for is some confirmation, which format for the GPS coordinates and the dates will actually work with the import script. I have experimented with a version written for IDimager v5 before and never managed to get this import to work. I ended up with files that contained corrupt GPS data and others with corrupt dates, where Photoshop was warning me each time when I opened the images that the File Info could not be read. I'd rather not experiment again and would much prefer to know which formats I should use.
Part of the problem is also the CSV export. The collection database from which I export the data stores the coordinates in degrees/minute/seconds and in decimal degrees. If the CSV import script needs degrees/decimal minutes, I need to write some macro that converts the data. Also. The database exports dates ad dd-MMM-yyyy. Again I need to know if the CSV requires dates to be in a different format.

What makes all this worse is a bug that apparently affects date fields of the custom DwC XMP: http://forum.idimager.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=24099
Could you a provide a brief example showing how you are able to nail down the GEO coordinates for some image (or specimen)?
Again: I wish sreenshots were possible here. Much easier to illustrate than trying to describe it using just words...

Cheers,
Frank

fbungarz
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Re: question about GPS format

Post by fbungarz » 05 Feb 16 10:44

PS: I quite understand that Hert is reluctant to change how the panels work and just had an idea. I virtually never use the info panel. I would assume that most people access their metadata (including their custom metadata) in Image Details. The standard info in the Info Panel leaves a lot of room for custom fields to be added. In my case that is a waste of space, but perhaps it would be possible to allow for more customization of that panel, i.e., enable an option to add elements from other panels here. In my case it would be perfect if I could add the Darwin Core location fields plus some elements from the Geo Panel (coordinate fields, altitude field + map applet) and the quick assign box from the label panel. That would be the perfect combination to do it all: enter locality data, add/modify GPS coordinates and quickly even add a label that might be missing...

So, more flexible customization options for the info panel would be a great alternative perhaps to opening several panels side-by-side, wasting no screen real estate, adding no clutter, but addressing the need for more flexibility !?

To misquote Lord of the Rings: "one panel to rule them all..."

vlad
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Re: question about GPS format

Post by vlad » 05 Feb 16 14:38

Frank, I'm still reading and digesting your explanations - for now, I'll just quickly mention that I recently saw a forum post with a screenshot embedded. You might want to try posting a screenshot again.

vlad
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Joined: 01 Sep 08 15:20

Re: question about GPS format

Post by vlad » 05 Feb 16 23:58

Dear Frank, even if you did not include any screenshot, I understand that your geo location info (for collected specimens) is tied to your other locality metadata (custom fields). That makes it easier for me to understand why you'd prefer simultaneous access to both Geo Tag and Image Details. It's a compelling use case, although not a common one. Btw, have you ever entered in Mantis the feature request for two or more panels open at the same time?
So, more flexible customization options for the info panel would be a great alternative perhaps to opening several panels side-by-side, wasting no screen real estate, adding no clutter, but addressing the need for more flexibility !?
I would not see that as the Info panel, but as a (new) Custom panel. It's an interesting suggestion - I would try it out, if it was implemented - but I'm not sure how much chance you have to persuade Hert. (The current interface design allows only minimal customization - and that may well reflect Hert's design philosophy rather than being a happenstance.)
all I ask for is some confirmation, which format for the GPS coordinates and the dates will actually work with the import script.
To repeat Hert's mantra: this is a user to user forum. If anyone knew the answer, you would have likely read it by now. That leaves you an option: asking the developer (Hert), via the support channels (email/Mantis). But, let me also offer a suggestion from the perspective of a software designer and developer: just because someone develops an application and knows it inside out, it doesn't necessarily mean (s)he can predict what exactly happens in all of the zillion combinations that a complex application supports. (I worked for years on a complex application and neither me nor any fellow developer could confidently predict what happened in certain fringe scenarios.) How likely do you think it is that Hert or someone else actually imported GPS coordinates and dates via the import script?

If you are reluctant to experiment but are asking for a definitive answer (or confirmation), you are esssentially asking someone else to experiment for you! :wink: (And, even then, could someone guarantee that you're not going to experience data corruption caused by some peculiar input or factor in your setup?)

(...Sorry for my ramblings...)

Friendly,
Vlad

fbungarz
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Re: question about GPS format

Post by fbungarz » 06 Feb 16 1:11

If you are reluctant to experiment but are asking for a definitive answer (or confirmation), you are esssentially asking someone else to experiment for you!
Well, yes, but it could be that perhaps someone already has tried it and knows the answer...
:wink:

And then - I don't think it is asking all that much from the author of the script, who presumably also wrote the program itself to know how dates and GPS data are actually stored in XMP. I strongly assume for the GPS data the degree/decimal minutes notation with the comma (,) replacing the degree symbol (°) is the correct format. That was also the format as it appears in IDI v5. But seeing the data being displayed differently in the Geo Panel got me wondering...

Finding the correct format for dates likely is much more of a challenge, even for the programmers. The way PCs handle dates and languages is a complete mess...
I would not see that as the Info panel, but as a (new) Custom panel. It's an interesting suggestion - I would try it out, if it was implemented - but I'm not sure how much chance you have to persuade Hert. (The current interface design allows only minimal customization - and that may well reflect Hert's design philosophy rather than being a happenstance.)
Whatever the panel is, I'd love to have that flexibility. But it is just an idea, of course. I can see that Hert is driving a conservative approach, trying to keep PSu's interface sleek and minimalistic. Which generally is an improvement over IDI's clutter...

It is not that the current interface is completely useless / unworkable. I just wish it could be more easily adapted to my workflow. But that is my, own selfish way of dreaming about the perfect program. :mrgreen:

Mike Buckley
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Re: question about GPS format

Post by Mike Buckley » 06 Feb 16 2:26

vlad wrote: To repeat Hert's mantra: this is a user to user forum.
Sorry, but I can't let that go. While I agree that that is his mantra, the notion that this is only a user-to-user forum is disingenuous. The developer regularly participates here in his role as the developer providing information that only the developer could know. Anyone who has participated here for awhile and thinks otherwise is naive in my opinion or has not read Hert's posts.

george
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Re: question about GPS format

Post by george » 06 Feb 16 16:11

Mike Buckley wrote:
vlad wrote: To repeat Hert's mantra: this is a user to user forum.
Sorry, but I can't let that go. While I agree that that is his mantra, the notion that this is only a user-to-user forum is disingenuous. The developer regularly participates here in his role as the developer providing information that only the developer could know. Anyone who has participated here for awhile and thinks otherwise is naive in my opinion or has not read Hert's posts.
Hi Mike. Vlad needs no defending from me, but I would say your reaction was a little harsh. Vlad's comment was a little snarky, but on a 10 point snark scale, I would give that a 1. Hert has said more than once that his participation here is as a user and that he wants bug reports, feature requests etc. in Mantis. Of course as the developer, Hert is in a position to provide detailed info about the use of the program that only the developer can, and he often does. Vlad knows all this full well--please read the rest of the paragraph from which you quoted the first sentence.
George

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