raw editor and PSU

fbungarz
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Location: Galapagos, Ecuador

raw editor and PSU

Post by fbungarz » 15 May 15 20:39

Hi everyone,
for editing my photos I have so far mostly used photoshop. I have played with a trial of Lightroom but don't like having to use a database, which would only be duplicating what PSU can do. In Capture one it is possible to use sessions instead of having to build catalogs. There are also quite a few reviews online that it is more powerful than lightroom and looking at their instructional videos I am impressed. Now, I have been looking around the Photo Supreme Forum to see if anyone else is using Capture One with PSU, but essentially have only seen a fairly long recent post that the PSU and Capture One (version 7) combo does apparently not work without hickups. Capture One is mow in version 8, though. So perhaps that combo works better?
Has anyone used PSU with Capture One? Recommendations? Advice?
I am particularly worried reading that:
1) Edits by Capture One might not be seen by PSU...
2) PSU Metadata of PSU might be corrupted by Capture One... (having read Hert's post that it apparently does not write XMP sidecars correctly).
[and an aspect that probably has nothing to do with PSU...3) apparently Capture one does not work well with DNGs, but much better with NEFs - is that true? So far my workflow uses the NEF essentially as a backup that is never touched...]
Thanks,
Frank

HCS
Posts: 154
Joined: 19 Feb 14 22:08

Re: raw editor and PSU

Post by HCS » 15 May 15 21:07

fbungarz wrote:Hi everyone,
for editing my photos I have so far mostly used photoshop. I have played with a trial of Lightroom but don't like having to use a database, which would only be duplicating what PSU can do. In Capture one it is possible to use sessions instead of having to build catalogs. There are also quite a few reviews online that it is more powerful than lightroom and looking at their instructional videos I am impressed. Now, I have been looking around the Photo Supreme Forum to see if anyone else is using Capture One with PSU, but essentially have only seen a fairly long recent post that the PSU and Capture One (version 7) combo does apparently not work without hickups. Capture One is mow in version 8, though. So perhaps that combo works better?
Has anyone used PSU with Capture One? Recommendations? Advice?
I am particularly worried reading that:
1) Edits by Capture One might not be seen by PSU...
2) PSU Metadata of PSU might be corrupted by Capture One... (having read Hert's post that it apparently does not write XMP sidecars correctly).
[and an aspect that probably has nothing to do with PSU...3) apparently Capture one does not work well with DNGs, but much better with NEFs - is that true? So far my workflow uses the NEF essentially as a backup that is never touched...]
Thanks,
Frank
I do. I use the latest CO (CO 8.2) in Session mode. You have to use Session mode if you want it to cooperate well with a DAM system (like PSU). I do, however, never ever update any metadata in CO for my pictures.

My workflow is to do all my importing, keywording, culling, archiving in PSU. I only do raw editing and conversion in CO.

About the visibility of the edits done in CO are "only" approximated in PSU (which is pretty slick if you ask me), but not all edits or subtle edits will be visible. Crops, B&W, etc. are.

For CO specific questions you better peruse the Phase One forums, but indeed, CO does handle original camera RAWs (nef, cr2, etc.) better than DNG, unless DNG is used by a camera as a RAW format.

Mike Buckley
Posts: 4561
Joined: 10 Jul 08 14:18

Re: raw editor and PSU

Post by Mike Buckley » 15 May 15 21:08

fbungarz wrote:I have played with a trial of Lightroom but don't like having to use a database
You only have to use the database to import the files. Once you export the files you can then remove all the imported files from the Lightroom database. The few times that I use Lightroom, that's what I do because, like you, I have no use for its database.

fbungarz
Posts: 3305
Joined: 08 Dec 06 5:03
Location: Galapagos, Ecuador

Re: raw editor and PSU

Post by fbungarz » 15 May 15 21:22

Hi HSC,
thanks much. That helps a lot. I do not intend to use CO for tagging, keywords etc. and already thought that using sessions was probably the way to go. Thanks also for confirming that CO works best with NEFs, not DNGs.
I assume you still need to have CO write the edits into a NEF XMP sidecar file and then have PSU read that file for those edits to show up in PSU?
Here is why I am concerned about this:
In my current workflow I typically have at least three versions of each image file:
1) I shoot JPG+NEF
2) I import both and convert the NEF to DNG
3) I use IDI (and am planning to use PSU) to database the photos, adding keywords and XMP
[4) I use photoshop to develop the DNGs and save them as an additional version (for example as print version)]

I typically cascade all keywords and XMP from the main version (the JPG) to all other versions...

Now, in the future, if I use CO, I would edit the NEF, have CaptureOne write the edits to a sidecar xmp, then read that xmp to PSU to see the edits, right?
If I then subsequently cascade the metadata in PSU from the main version down again (because I added more keywords or filled in more XMP fields), would these edits (i.e., the NEF sidecar from CO) then not get overwritten by PSU?

Sorry for asking these specific questions. Your workflow is probably quite different...

Cheers,
Frank

fbungarz
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Joined: 08 Dec 06 5:03
Location: Galapagos, Ecuador

Re: raw editor and PSU

Post by fbungarz » 18 May 15 14:05

Dear Hert et al.,
I have started with my Capture One trial and am confused that apparently my edits that I apply to NEF files don't show up in PSU. I have looked at the metadata tab in Capture One and see that for some files metadata written originally by IDimager show up, for other files IDI metadata are not seen by Capture One.
Trying to figure out why that is the case, I have been experimenting with using Capture One to read and write metadata for a few files. That apparently overwrites the data written by IDI and/or PSU - and any images adjustments to the raw files still do not show up in IDI/PSU.
Perhaps I am going at this all wrong. Following another post on Capture One and PSU (http://forum.idimager.com/viewtopic.php ... 4&start=75) I am not quite sure where/how/if Capture One stores Raw Adjustment Data. Are those adjustments not part of the image metadata? Are the adjustments not written out to XMP sidecar files? If not, how can IDI read those adjustment data and then show the edits?

HSC wrote:
About the visibility of the edits done in CO are "only" approximated in PSU (which is pretty slick if you ask me), but not all edits or subtle edits will be visible. Crops, B&W, etc. are.
I have experimented and do not see any edits! Perhaps I have configured Capture One incorrectly (I am using the defaults) and the data that PSU needs to display the raw adjustments are not written to the image file or its sidecar?

Ideally I would want:
(1) Use PSU for image management (which of course implies that PSU needs to show which files have been edited, even if only approximately so... - according to HSC that is possible, yet I don't see any adjustments)
(2) Use Capture One for the raw adjustments and not write metadata (apart from those that apply to the adjustments)

But perhaps I also have not configured PSU correctly?
How is PSU able to "see" raw adjustments from external editors?

Thanks,
Frank

HCS
Posts: 154
Joined: 19 Feb 14 22:08

Re: raw editor and PSU

Post by HCS » 18 May 15 19:18

fbungarz wrote:Hi HSC,
thanks much. That helps a lot. I do not intend to use CO for tagging, keywords etc. and already thought that using sessions was probably the way to go. Thanks also for confirming that CO works best with NEFs, not DNGs.
I assume you still need to have CO write the edits into a NEF XMP sidecar file and then have PSU read that file for those edits to show up in PSU?
Here is why I am concerned about this:
In my current workflow I typically have at least three versions of each image file:
1) I shoot JPG+NEF
2) I import both and convert the NEF to DNG
3) I use IDI (and am planning to use PSU) to database the photos, adding keywords and XMP
[4) I use photoshop to develop the DNGs and save them as an additional version (for example as print version)]

I typically cascade all keywords and XMP from the main version (the JPG) to all other versions...

Now, in the future, if I use CO, I would edit the NEF, have CaptureOne write the edits to a sidecar xmp, then read that xmp to PSU to see the edits, right?
If I then subsequently cascade the metadata in PSU from the main version down again (because I added more keywords or filled in more XMP fields), would these edits (i.e., the NEF sidecar from CO) then not get overwritten by PSU?

Sorry for asking these specific questions. Your workflow is probably quite different...

Cheers,
Frank
No problem.

I believe the version detection will arrange all of that for you. Except that PSU doesn't write anything to the xmp, i actually reads the .cos file to interpret the edits you've made in CO.

HCS
Posts: 154
Joined: 19 Feb 14 22:08

Re: raw editor and PSU

Post by HCS » 18 May 15 19:21

fbungarz wrote:...
HSC wrote:
About the visibility of the edits done in CO are "only" approximated in PSU (which is pretty slick if you ask me), but not all edits or subtle edits will be visible. Crops, B&W, etc. are.
I have experimented and do not see any edits! Perhaps I have configured Capture One incorrectly (I am using the defaults) and the data that PSU needs to display the raw adjustments are not written to the image file or its sidecar?

Ideally I would want:
(1) Use PSU for image management (which of course implies that PSU needs to show which files have been edited, even if only approximately so... - according to HSC that is possible, yet I don't see any adjustments)
(2) Use Capture One for the raw adjustments and not write metadata (apart from those that apply to the adjustments)

But perhaps I also have not configured PSU correctly?
How is PSU able to "see" raw adjustments from external editors?

Thanks,
Frank
Frank, have you tried some radical edits in CO, like B&W or a severe crop?

By the way, which version of CO do you use?

For no. 2, that is exactly what happens if you have PSU and CO work together with CO in Session mode and as long as you don't edit any metadata in CO.

fbungarz
Posts: 3305
Joined: 08 Dec 06 5:03
Location: Galapagos, Ecuador

Re: raw editor and PSU

Post by fbungarz » 19 May 15 8:49

Hi HSC,
thanks a lot. I am working with the Trial of 8.2. - still trying out the program and not sure if I even understand it all correctly. Good to know that the adjustments are stored in a separate *.cos file and not as part of the XMP sidecar. I was unaware that that was the case and that the *.cos file is only created with sessions and not the catalog of Capture One. This explains a lot! Of course PSU can only read the *.cos file if there is one.

I am also running a DxO trial and a Lightroom trial.
I like DxO a lot, but version 10 no longer has an icon on its thumbnails that indicates whether raw files have been adjusted or not. That makes it virtually impossible to tell if images have been edited or not. Very odd! I'd love to use it, but it seems with that icon removed the program is essentially useless...

Reading through a few posts I have seen that you are also using other Raw Converters like Light Zone, Raw Therapy etc. Have any experience how well these work together with PSU? Why are you using several different ones?

Again: thanks!

Frank

Mike Buckley
Posts: 4561
Joined: 10 Jul 08 14:18

Re: raw editor and PSU

Post by Mike Buckley » 19 May 15 13:17

fbungarz wrote:I like DxO a lot, but version 10 no longer has an icon on its thumbnails that indicates whether raw files have been adjusted or not...I'd love to use it, but it seems with that icon removed the program is essentially useless...
Considering that you otherwise like DxO so much, why not use IDimager or Supreme to indicate the status or use DxO's "save as" capability to use a file-naming scheme that indicates the status?

fbungarz
Posts: 3305
Joined: 08 Dec 06 5:03
Location: Galapagos, Ecuador

Re: raw editor and PSU

Post by fbungarz » 19 May 15 15:56

Considering that you otherwise like DxO so much, why not use IDimager or Supreme to indicate the status or use DxO's "save as" capability to use a file-naming scheme that indicates the status?
Hi Mike,
I have been considering that - for PSU.
But - what actually mostly irritates me is that when I open a bunch of images in DxO I cannot tell, within the program, if I have already adjusted files or if I don't. Obviously if the adjustments are drastic, for example correct a strongly underexposed image, that can be seen from the way the thumbnails look. Most adjustments are less drastic though and if I am adjusting a large number of files it is essentially impossible to tell. Not PSU's fault, I know...

PS [edited]: Mke just suggested a possible workaround (http://forum.idimager.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=23622). Thanks!

fbungarz
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Joined: 08 Dec 06 5:03
Location: Galapagos, Ecuador

Re: raw editor and PSU

Post by fbungarz » 19 May 15 17:01

Dear HSC,
OK - I have been using PSU and Capture One in sessions now, but even most drastic edits do NOT show up, even if I configure PSU to show edits as "approximate" and use CTRL+ALT+T to update the thumbs.
Attached two screenshots of a DNG that I quite messed up and cropped in Capture One, but none of this can be seen in PSU...
:(
Here the screenshot from Capture One:
WeirdAdjustemtCaptureOne.jpg
WeirdAdjustemtCaptureOne.jpg (81.47 KiB) Viewed 3408 times
Here from PSU:
WeirdAdjustemtPhotoSupreme.jpg
WeirdAdjustemtPhotoSupreme.jpg (71.02 KiB) Viewed 3408 times
I tried restarting the programs, same difference...
Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Frank

Hert
Posts: 21555
Joined: 13 Sep 03 7:24

Re: raw editor and PSU

Post by Hert » 19 May 15 17:13

Hi Frank,
The DNG file format is designed to contain up-to-date previews. PSU won't apply edits "again", simply because it assumes that the RAW tool used to edit the DNG also updates the preview inside the DNG.
This is a User-to-User forum which means that users post questions here for other users.
Feature requests, change suggestions, or bugs can be logged in the ticketing system

weidmic
moderator
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Re: raw editor and PSU

Post by weidmic » 19 May 15 18:42

Frank,
what you are experiencing with Capture One is the exact same problem I had and why I have decited against CO.
I think the DNG's created by CO do not contain the altered previews, as I would expect...

Cheers,
Michael
PSUServer 4.x, PostgreSQL 10.x
My homepage http://www.michaelweidner.com
PSU Tips and Tricks http://www.michaelweidner.com/WP/psu/

fbungarz
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Joined: 08 Dec 06 5:03
Location: Galapagos, Ecuador

Re: raw editor and PSU

Post by fbungarz » 19 May 15 20:19

Hi Hert and Michael,
that makes sense! Given that Capture One is supposed to work better with NEFs anyway the edits should show up there right? I'll need to try this out...
I am still not decided about DxO and Capture One. I just noticed that DxO renders some of my older DNGs really weird, an extreme color cast and overexposure, as if the files were corrupted. The same files have no problems in ACR or Capture One. And I really don't like the idea of having mark manually, which photos were adjusted. It is really stupid in my opinion that DxO has no 'Edited Marker'.
Out of curiosity, Michel: Wchich Raw Converter are you using? Probably Lightroom? Or DxO? If Lightroom, does that not cause problems with PSU because they write adjustments to XMP?
Thanks,
Frank

PS: I just tried and changes to NEFs do indeed show up. The approximation is not too bad, though I get strange looking thumbs in PSU when I adjust levels in Capture One...

weidmic
moderator
Posts: 4501
Joined: 04 Dec 06 22:21

Re: raw editor and PSU

Post by weidmic » 19 May 15 20:51

Frank,
right now my workflow consits of three applications: PSU - Lightroom CC - Photoshop CC
All my photos are converted to DNG at the time I ingest them into PSU... (a original is being copied to a backup drive)

I tried several workflows and switched a few times between RAW and DNG but I went always back to DNG since it is very confinient to always see the edited images...
It is the lazy approach. I would love to work with Capture One since it is such a powerful RAW converter and the quality of detail you can pull out of your images is just amazing.

Problems are not really existent between PSU and LR...

Cheers
Michael
PSUServer 4.x, PostgreSQL 10.x
My homepage http://www.michaelweidner.com
PSU Tips and Tricks http://www.michaelweidner.com/WP/psu/

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