Where to find a date?

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rab108
Posts: 12
Joined: 12 Nov 14 12:48

Where to find a date?

Post by rab108 » 10 Dec 14 10:22

Situation
The catalog is sorted by date and it shows the years 2014 through 1998. Then, the year of 1899 is shown after 1998. Of course, no photos were taken in 1899, however, PS says there I have 239 photos from this year. I have looked everywhere in the Details of several different photos. However, I cannot find where the year 1899 is coming from. In all cases, these photos were taken in 2013.

Q1 - Which date is used to catalog photos?
Q2 - Where is this date located?
Q3 - Why would this date be used?
Q4 - How/why would this date change?

Thanks for your help.
Regards, Allen

Hert
Posts: 15913
Joined: 13 Sep 03 7:24

Re: Where to find a date?

Post by Hert » 10 Dec 14 10:47

Most likely these images have incomplete XMP (you've probably uses software on these images that only partly creates the XMP for the technical metadata...GeoSetter for example). Try this:

1. Select the thumb
2. Right click on the thumb and select Metadata -> Convert Metadata to XMP
This is a User-to-User forum which means that users post questions here for other users.
Feature requests, change suggestions, or bugs can be logged in the ticketing system

vlad
Posts: 969
Joined: 01 Sep 08 15:20

Re: Where to find a date?

Post by vlad » 10 Dec 14 11:53

Hi Allen,

I expect Hert's practical advice to solve your incorrect dates, but I'll try to answer your questions anyway. (Coincidentally, I've just looked at exactly the same questions & issues. As a matter of fact, these regularly pop up in the forum.)
I have looked everywhere in the Details of several different photos. However, I cannot find where the year 1899 is coming from.
You will not find it as such in any field. My understanding is that 12-30-1899 is interpreted or designated (not sure if by PSU only or by the standards too) as the date to be represented when certain metadata fields are absent or filled with 0.
Q1 - Which date is used to catalog photos?
That date is determined by a schema rather than a single date field for all cases. I'm copying the schema from a different post:
IDimager wrote:The general purpose "photo date" is constructed as:

first XMP's exif:DateTimeOriginal
if not exists XMP's exif:DateTimeDigitized
If not exists XMP's tiff:DateTime
if not exists EXIF's date time original
if not exists EXIF's date time digitized
if not exists EXIF's base date (0x132)
if not exists File Last Modification Date

Info Panel shows XMP's exif:DateTimeDigitized
Q2 - Where is this date located?
In the PSU database. As explained, you cannot rely on a single metadata field, common across all images.
Q3 - Why would this date be used?
Not sure. The technical standards are complex and they employ many different dates. (This is indeed confusing for the average user.) I guess the IdImager staff has concluded the above schema yields, in general, the most suitable date for cataloging and filtering by period (without forcing the user to dig into the technical details - but a technical user could still specify particular metadata fields and macros to search or filter on).

To add to the confusion, PSU itself seems to employ and expose different dates (one for cataloging and one for the Info panel, IIUC). Not sure why.
Q4 - How/why would this date change?
I would love to get a more detailed answer to this too. Hert has repeatedly mentioned changes made outside PSU and I guess that's the typical case. I'm not sure if that's your case too - In my own case, I personally think it's an internal inconsistency in the PSU database (although I can't concludently prove it). No matter what, converting the metadata to XMP should fix the dates (and possibly other inconsistencies too).

Hope that helps,
Vlad

HaraldE
Posts: 389
Joined: 29 Apr 07 22:30
Location: Bålsta, Sweden

Re: Where to find a date?

Post by HaraldE » 11 Dec 14 11:14

Very good Vlad,

This is the best date sum-up I have seen for a long time. Hope other people with a "date" knowledge will chip in.

My feeling is that PSU is managing all the dates well but an xref between XMP and PSU would be nice.

PSU is using the "photo date", as you described above. This is used and (probably) shown in various places in PSU, like Info and Details panel.
My feeling is that the Photo Date is good for display and/or sorting. So when PSU talks about "Catalog by Date" maybe this is better phrased as "Catalog by Photo Date".

Regards, Harald

vlad
Posts: 969
Joined: 01 Sep 08 15:20

Re: Where to find a date?

Post by vlad » 11 Dec 14 14:54

Thanks for the comments, Harald!
HaraldE wrote:My feeling is that PSU is managing all the dates well but an xref between XMP and PSU would be nice.
What do you mean by that?

HaraldE
Posts: 389
Joined: 29 Apr 07 22:30
Location: Bålsta, Sweden

Re: Where to find a date?

Post by HaraldE » 12 Dec 14 8:54

Hello Vlad,
Not sure which part you are asking for so will try to briefly cover both
HaraldE wrote:PSU is managing all the dates well
There are a number of date fields in metadata so the concept of Photo Date in PSU is valid since otherwise sorting and selecting would be complicated.
Also I am happy with the abilities of the PSU Redate Panel (CTRL+SHIFT+D), especially the easy way to shift date and time. This I use when different cameras are not properly synchronised
HaraldE wrote:an xref between XMP and PSU would be nice
I feel that date management in PSU is good but not allways clear to me. When the best place to find such information is in a forum there is room for document improvements.
When a date is displayed in PSU (for example in the Details Panel) I assume it comes from the catalog. And the catalog date was picked up from XMP. And the same flow works also from PSU > Catalog > XMP. I believe a xref between PSU User Interface - PSU Catalog - XMP Metadata would be interesting.

The above are no demands, mainly comments. Now and then I have had a need to check metadata using ExifTool and find it very easy to get lost among all metadata. My knwoledge about XMP is not strong so I assume I maybe should have included also EXIF in the above comment.

Regards, Harald

vlad
Posts: 969
Joined: 01 Sep 08 15:20

Re: Where to find a date?

Post by vlad » 12 Dec 14 19:11

Thanks for the explanations, Harald - I now understand your previous comments better.
There are a number of date fields in metadata so the concept of Photo Date in PSU is valid since otherwise sorting and selecting would be complicated.
Excellent point!
HaraldE wrote:I feel that date management in PSU is good but not allways clear to me. When the best place to find such information is in a forum there is room for document improvements.
Agreed. I might have an idea (suggestion) on doc improvement, but I'll write it up seperately (since that topic is more general than the photo date aspects).
When a date is displayed in PSU (for example in the Details Panel) I assume it comes from the catalog. And the catalog date was picked up from XMP. And the same flow works also from PSU > Catalog > XMP. I believe a xref between PSU User Interface - PSU Catalog - XMP Metadata would be interesting.
I see your point and I would welcome such a xref. Perhaps it could be used also as a selling point to pro photographers and DAM professionals. (It's obvious PSU also caters to that market, but I have no idea about its market share.) But, given that PSU is (or, at least, aims to be) fully compliant with the standards and specs (IPTC, XMP), and given how many settings and workflows PSU supports, I would expect a full xref would end up being a highly technical document, quite hard to compile, maintain - and even to read :wink:. (The more technical a document is, the higher importance have its accuracy and completeness, up to the level of very fine details - so that's not an effort to take up lightly, IMHO.)

Regards,
Vlad

MB17
Posts: 22
Joined: 14 Dec 14 14:59

Re: Where to find a date?

Post by MB17 » 15 Dec 14 6:17

IDimager wrote:Most likely these images have incomplete XMP (you've probably uses software on these images that only partly creates the XMP for the technical metadata...GeoSetter for example). Try this:

1. Select the thumb
2. Right click on the thumb and select Metadata -> Convert Metadata to XMP
HI,

I did this, but the files are still labeled as "1899-12-30" in Catalog "By Date".

Is there any other thing I can try?

Thanks.

vlad
Posts: 969
Joined: 01 Sep 08 15:20

Re: Where to find a date?

Post by vlad » 17 Dec 14 12:18

Is there any other thing I can try?
Hi,
I could suggest three other things to try (perhaps in this order):
1. Metadata -> Save Metadata to File (Ctrl+S on Windows)
2. Read Metadata from File (Ctrl+Alt+S)
3. Email such a problematic file to IDimager support or submit a report using the support system: http://mantis.idimager.com
(Make sure the attached file is in sync - no orange dot should appear on its thumb.)

Hope that helps,
Vlad

HaraldE
Posts: 389
Joined: 29 Apr 07 22:30
Location: Bålsta, Sweden

Re: Where to find a date?

Post by HaraldE » 18 Dec 14 0:30

MB17 wrote:I did this, but the files are still labeled as "1899-12-30" in Catalog "By Date".
Just out of interest.

> What kind of images are these where you have the 1899 date? Are they from a digital camera or from a scanner?
> Also, what date is shown in the Re-date panel (use CTRL+Shift+D to see it)?
> Can I assume you know the real dates for these images?
> Have you tried to add the correct date to one image, using re-date panel? If so, is it still wrong in Catalog "By Date"?

Regards, Harald

MB17
Posts: 22
Joined: 14 Dec 14 14:59

Re: Where to find a date?

Post by MB17 » 19 Dec 14 4:10

I'm out of town and not in travel mode, so as soon as I'm back on Saturday, I'll report back. Thanks.

MB17
Posts: 22
Joined: 14 Dec 14 14:59

Re: Where to find a date?

Post by MB17 » 20 Dec 14 19:06

First, thanks to you both. I'll try to address the questions as to help others as well.

Original Situtation:
- Files had "Date Taken" as read in Windows Explorer as "01-jan-1899"
- Date created and date modified also in Windows Explorer were dated to some date in December 2014 when I created the Catalogue
- in PSupreme, in Details, in "Description>Document Title>Description Date" it had the correct Date the pictures were taken in 2003.
- in CTRL+SHIFT+D in "Change Metada Date", Change Date to (hand entered) initial date shown is the dreaded 01-01-1899
- if I ticked "Change file date" it would be initially there today's date.

Attempted Solutions:
- as suggested above by Idimager: "1. Select the thumb / 2. Right click on the thumb and select Metadata -> Convert Metadata to XMP" - DID NOT WORK
- from within PSU with Re-date panel, tried to input correct date in both field and then CTRL+S to assure metada was changed... - DID NOT WORK
- I then checked in Lightrooom and files were Date filtered correctly, in 2003, but in PSU they were still 1899.

Working Solution:
- Next attempt was to change "Date Taken" in Windows Explorer itself. I did.
- I then changed ONLY "Change Metadata Date" field in Re-date panel at PSU to the corrected date.
- at first, thumbs are still in the "1899>1899-01>1899-01-01" catalog Pane. I then clicked on the right date of the pictures and they were now there. Then clicked back in the 1899 and files were rightly gone... Although in the number of pictures unde "1899" it still counts 11 pictures as initially. To solve this, I went to the Folder where the pictures were and did a "Verify Folder". After that, went back to Catalog by Date and the "1899" data was gone!

Only questions answered, I believe, that will do now: they were regular JPG picutres taken from a camera in 2003. Very small, around 300KB, but I down't know why that was, probably an original camera setting. I also believe they were "corrupt" copies of originals that were perfectly cataloged. That said, I was a little disappointed that I couldn't fix the problem easily with PSU and had to go through Windows Explorer (actually I first tried an independent File Manager to change Created and Modified Dates, but this proved unnecessary/not working, just added one step to the solution)

Hope this helps others as well.

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