PS3, PhotoNinja and license question

HvTFoto
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PS3, PhotoNinja and license question

Post by HvTFoto » 24 Oct 14 22:42

Was just made aware that PS 3 has been released (haven't looked at PS since version 1) and understand from the release notes PS can identify edits made to raw-files from some rawconverters but didn't find any mentioning of PhotoNinja in the release notes (just converted from Capture NX2 to PN). Are PN edits identified (or planned to be in the near future)? When it comes to licensing, can I install PS on two machines (one desktop and one laptop Mac) or do I need two licenses for that?

//Hans

Hert
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Re: PS3, PhotoNinja and license question

Post by Hert » 24 Oct 14 22:52

PhotoNinja is currently not scheduled to be supported. For V3 the focus was on supporting the larger RAW editors and so I haven't delved into PhotoNinja and how it stores edits, nor how feasible it is to have it supported at all.
The software is licensed on a personal base meaning that it doesn't matter how many computers you install it on, you as a licensed user can use it on any of them.
Hert
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HvTFoto
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Re: PS3, PhotoNinja and license question

Post by HvTFoto » 24 Oct 14 22:58

Thanks for the quick reply. I'll give v3 a test.

//Hans

HCS
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Re: PS3, PhotoNinja and license question

Post by HCS » 25 Oct 14 9:55

There is no real need to support PN like DXO or CO. In PN, you can write a small jpeg file with the PN edits included. You could setup a version place holder in PSU.

Every time you launch that jpeg in PN, it will look up the orig raw file (setting in PN) and apply the edits as in the jpeg. Very much like the recipe files of the other converters, but with a pgp (pretty good preview) included. By the way, in case you or someone else cares, LightZone works in the same way. When you edit a raw file, the recipe is stored in an .lzn file, which is nothing more (or less) than a jpeg with the edits included. Same applies for LZ as for PN.

Hope this gives some ideas about how to incorporate this in your PSU workflow.

Oh ... and welcome "over here", you may know me also as hcs from the P1 forums.

hesee
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Re: PS3, PhotoNinja and license question

Post by hesee » 25 Oct 14 10:13

IDimager wrote:The software is licensed on a personal base meaning that it doesn't matter how many computers you install it on, you as a licensed user can use it on any of them.
Hert
Thanks for this info, i didn't find it on searching and was going to ask it. With Lightroom my habbit was to import photos in laptops Lightroom on trips, cull them, process some and after trip export and import catalog on main machine. Now i can continue pretty much same practice with PS 3 and C1. :)

Hert
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Re: PS3, PhotoNinja and license question

Post by Hert » 25 Oct 14 12:15

@HCS; thank you for the addition. Good that you mention LightZone here because PhotoSupreme does support the LZN files. Are you saying that PhotoNinja uses a similar approach? If so then it would be possible for to add support for their proxy files as well. I'd have to verify it first though. I was under the impression that LightZone didn't work with LZN files anymore.

@hesee; a warm welcome to the forum
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HCS
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Re: PS3, PhotoNinja and license question

Post by HCS » 25 Oct 14 18:27

IDimager wrote:@HCS; thank you for the addition. Good that you mention LightZone here because PhotoSupreme does support the LZN files. Are you saying that PhotoNinja uses a similar approach? If so then it would be possible for to add support for their proxy files as well. I'd have to verify it first though. I was under the impression that LightZone didn't work with LZN files anymore. ...
Hert, you're welcome.

Lightzone does indeed still work with the lzn files. Also, Photo Ninja works somehow similar, it's just a setting within PN. You can set it to store the processing parameters in the output file, which can be a jpeg, but also a tiff. I didn't mention that, because it seemed not to fit the purpose above, but you could imagine various workflows using big fully processed files. PN itself monitors the setting, so to everyone else, it's just an image file (jpeg or tiff).

If you want, i can send you some examples, just let me know via email.

HCS
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RECTIFICATION Re: PS3, PhotoNinja and license question

Post by HCS » 25 Oct 14 22:31

Sorry all, i was too quick on the draw with my remark above about the jpeg/tiff file with settings embedded. While that certainly is an option with PN, it (PN) also writes xmp sidecar files and can even be configured to write "shadow" xmp files in its own sub folder of the image folder, just to make sure no other application touches it.

(i've sent Hert an example of that).

Hert
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Re: PS3, PhotoNinja and license question

Post by Hert » 26 Oct 14 11:16

@HCS; Thank you for the sample XMP files. The xmp sidecar file indeed holds a set of editing parameters that PhotoNinja stored. This is comparable to how Lightroom stores its ACR schema. Supporting this would means that another interpreter should be written that interprets the edits made in PhotoNinja. Too bad that it doesn't write a proxy file (or if it does, then maybe you didn't include it?). Supporting a proxy file is fairly simple, but writing an edits-interpreter is a lot of work and not for a minor update. Also, the number of users that uses both PhotoNinja and PSU should also be significant to justify the effort.

The shadow_xmp file is now added as a managed sidecar file for the next update. That will keep the files together on file operations.
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tstoddard
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Re: PS3, PhotoNinja and license question

Post by tstoddard » 26 Oct 14 14:30

Hert,

I use Photo Ninja and but I usually output jpegs when I want to see those results in PSU so I wouldn't ask you to write an interpreter. My question is, if I tell PSU to ignore the folder that hold the shadow XMP files (I thinks it's "_PhotoNinja"), will that prevent PSU from managing those shadow files in file operations?

I usually do tell PSU to ignore that folder just because I know there aren't any image files in that folder and it makes future folder verifications a little simpler. Should I let PSU track that folder? What difference does it really make?
Tom Stoddard

tstoddard
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Re: PS3, PhotoNinja and license question

Post by tstoddard » 26 Oct 14 14:37

Hert,

I just went back to look at my Photo Ninja settings and realized that there is a setting the allows Photo Ninja to store "preview" files in that subfolder. Would that preview file be something like a "proxy" file? I'll send you a sample.
Tom Stoddard

Hert
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Re: PS3, PhotoNinja and license question

Post by Hert » 26 Oct 14 15:48

Thank you for the sample file Tom. That is *exactly* what I mean with a proxy file. Is this file stored in the _PhotoNinja subfolder?

This preview file is a JPG file. I remember that HCS was talking about an option that allows you to define either a JPG or a TIF preview file in PhotoNinja. Do you also have an example of such a TIF preview file? Thank you
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tstoddard
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Re: PS3, PhotoNinja and license question

Post by tstoddard » 26 Oct 14 17:17

Yes, Hert, the preview file is stored in the _PhotoNinja folder along with the shadow xml files. I don't think that the previews are ever tif files. I think the comment made earlier was in reference to files that are output by Photo Ninja. PN gives the user the option to "embed the editor settings" in the jpeg or tiff file that is generated by PN. Doing so allows you to reopen the rendered file and re-edit it starting with the last editor settings. In other words, when you open a jpeg or tiff file that you created in PN, if the editor settings are embedded in the file, PN will open the original raw file with those embedded settings applied and then you can change those setting and re-render your jpeg or tiff or create a new rendered jpeg or tiff.

I think that the "preview" file is always going to be a jpeg. At least there is no place that I can see in the preferences where you are given the option to change the type of preview file that is created.

Also, it's important for Photo Ninja users to have these preferences set correctly in order to have preview files saved to that folder. Both the shadow files and the preview files can be turned on or off in Photo Ninja settings.
Tom Stoddard

Hert
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Re: PS3, PhotoNinja and license question

Post by Hert » 26 Oct 14 19:56

Thank you Tom. The next update will read these preview files (if available).
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tstoddard
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Re: PS3, PhotoNinja and license question

Post by tstoddard » 26 Oct 14 20:05

Hert,

In order to be sure that you have all the information you need to be able to support Photo Ninja, I did some additional experimentation. I imported a raw file from my camera into a test folder. Then I open it in Photo Ninja, made some adjustments and saved them and closed the editor. Then I reopened the same raw (.nef) file in Photo Ninja and rendered a jpeg from it. Then I closed the editor again. Then I reopened the editor once more, made a few more adjustments and rendered a tiff file. Here is the result of these actions.

My original file is named DSC_8924.NEF

After adjusting raw and closing I had a subfolder called _PhotoNinja with the following files in it:
  • DSC_8924_NEF.shadow_xmp
  • DSC_8924_NEF.preview
After reopening and rendering a jpeg I had:
  • DSC_8924_jpg.shadow_xmp
  • DSC_8924_NEF.shadow_xmp
  • DSC_8924_NEF.preview
After reopening again and rendering a tiff file, I now have:
  • DSC_8924_1_tiff.preview
  • DSC_8924_1_tiff.shadow_xmp
  • DSC_8924_jpg.shadow_xmp
  • DSC_8924_NEF.shadow_xmp
  • DSC_8924_NEF.preview
The renaming scheme that I used renamed the jpeg as DSC_8924.jpg and the tiff file as DSC_8924_1.tiff. Notice that there is no preview file generated for the jpeg.

I will email you the DSC_8924_1_tiff.preview file for your reference. It is about the same size as the other preview file so I'm guessing that it too is a jpeg.

Thanks for considering this.

Note: original post was edited to correct a typo in three of the file names.
Last edited by tstoddard on 26 Oct 14 20:28, edited 1 time in total.
Tom Stoddard

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