How to find all Versions without Placeholders?

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David Grundy
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Location: Hong Kong

How to find all Versions without Placeholders?

Post by David Grundy » 14 Jul 13 9:09

The only Placeholders I use at present are Main and Album Display. And I know there are exactly 50 files in my catalog which are Managed Versions but are not assigned a Version Placeholder. So how do I find them?

(Every Version Set in my Catalog has a Main Version and an Album Display Version. 50 Version Sets have a 3rd Version with no Placeholder assigned. How do I know that? That's the subject of another thread...)

I thought I could use a dynamic search with PSu's Version Placeholder searches for ( [File is a Managed Version] AND NOT ([File is Main Version]) AND NOT (File is Album Display Verison) ). But it doesn't work as expected.

Surely there's an easy way but I can't find it ... any ideas? (I'm expecting a "doh!" moment ... when someone points out the PSu "Search for unassigned Placeholders" or something which I didn't notice ...)

... David

Hert
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Joined: 13 Sep 03 7:24

Re: How to find all Versions without Placeholders?

Post by Hert » 14 Jul 13 9:25

Maybe open CATALOG -> By Version Placeholder:
1. Add Version Sets
2. "album display"
3. Right click on "album display" in the Dynamic Search and select "Exclude from Search"
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David Grundy
Posts: 241
Joined: 13 May 07 16:40
Location: Hong Kong

Re: How to find all Versions without Placeholders?

Post by David Grundy » 14 Jul 13 10:08

Thanks Hert for quick response.

I thought of that idea too, but it doesn't work as expected. It produces 684 results (including all Main Versions) rather than the 50 I was hoping for. I don't really want to go through and find them one by one, although as it happens it's (sort of) feasible.

If I try to filter the result of this search on Album Placeholder (with intention of reversing the filter) I get an error like the one I reported earlier for trying to filter on "Any version".

David Grundy
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Location: Hong Kong

Re: How to find all Versions without Placeholders?

Post by David Grundy » 14 Jul 13 10:16

Here's the "easiest" I could come up with.

(It is made a bit easier in my case by the fact that I know I only have two Placeholders assigned: Main and Album Display. Otherwise I would need to repeat step 5 for every additional Placeholder that's in use.)

Warning: convoluted labelling logic ahead ... read at own risk :wink:

1. Create a custom input field called PSuPlaceholder
Note: It's part of a "version exists" group of labels which I'm using to identify files which are part of Managed Version sets, so I have a means to search for all files with a given Version Placeholder in one step without using PSu's inbuilt function for this. I can't understand PSu's logic for combined searches involving Managed Versions so I'm working around.
BTW Actually this implementation is not quite a general approach ... If I sometimes had multiple Placeholders assigned to the same Version in a set, I would need to create a Y/N field for each named Placeholder in order to apply a similar approach.

2. Set up a (private) label VX Versioned.
The purpose is to indicate all files which are part of version sets, without relying on PSu's inbuilt search for versioned images (since I don't understand PSu's Version search logic).

3. Apply the VX Versioned label to all relevant files.
3a. Search for the Version Placeholder "Version Sets"; this returns every Main Version for images with Managed Versions. Select all results.
3b. Assign the label "VX Versioned".

4. Define the PSuPlaceholder value for Main Versions, and set up a corresponding Favourite dynamic search.
Note: This gives a way to search for Main Versions as files, rather than using PSU's "search for Version Sets" which doesn't do what I need when combined with other search terms.
4a. Search for the Version Placeholder "Version Sets"; this returns every Main Version for images with Managed Versions. Select all results. (This is the same as 2a.)
4b. Assign the text "Main" to the input field PSuPlaceholder.
4c. Text search for Main @xmp.ics.PSuPlaceholder.
4d. Clear the Dynamic search, "add the current collection" into the Dynamic Search box, Save as Favourite Search, and rename to something recognisable such as Main_in_PSuPH.

5. Define the PSuPlaceholder value for Album Display Versions, and set up a corresponding Favourite dynamic search.
Note: This gives a way to search for AlbumDisplay Versions as files, rather than using PSU's "search for Album Display Versions" which doesn't do what I need when combined with other search terms.
5a. Search for the Version Placeholder "Album Display"; this returns every Album Display Version. Select all results.
5b. Assign the text " AlbumDisplay " to the input field PSuPlaceholder.
5c. Text search for AlbumDisplay @xmp.ics.PSuPlaceholder.
5d. Clear the Dynamic search, "add the current collection" into the Dynamic Search box, Save as Favourite Search, and rename to something recognisable such as AlbumDisplay_in_PSuPH.

6. A detour: Something that doesn’t work - I don't know why, and I will post separately about it. I search for
[file has the label VX Versioned] AND (EXCLUDE [Main_in_PSuPH]) AND (EXCLUDE [AlbumDisplay_in_PSUPH]).
But I get zero results. I'll pick this up in a separate thread about the logic of Placeholder Searches.
OK, that doesn't work so instead of (A and Not_B and Not_C) I will search for (A and Not_(B or C)), ie
[file has the label VX Versioned] AND ( EXCLUDE ([Main_in_PSuPH] OR [AlbumDisplay_in_PSUPH]) ).
To do this I need to set up a combined OR search as a Favourite dynamic search. That's step 7.

7. Set up [Main_in_PSuPH] OR [AlbumDisplay_in_PSUPH] as a Favourite Dynamic Search.
7a. Clear the dynamic search, add the two Favourites to the Search. Make sure it's "OR" not "AND". Search. Save this as a new Favourite Dynamic Search.
7b. Rename the new Favourite as something recognisable, eg PsuPH_Main_or_Album

8. (Finally) the combined search that works
Clear the Dynamic Search.
Add "VX Versioned" (label) to the search.
Add PsuPH_Main_or_Album to the Search. Specify that it's excluded.
Run the "AND" search.

Finally I can see the 50 files which are Managed Versions and which don't have placeholders assigned.

jstartin
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Location: UK

Re: How to find all Versions without Placeholders?

Post by jstartin » 16 Jul 13 16:24

IDimager wrote:Maybe open CATALOG -> By Version Placeholder:
1. Add Version Sets
2. "album display"
3. Right click on "album display" in the Dynamic Search and select "Exclude from Search"
This doesn't work well for me! Neither from this thread nor from http://forum.idimager.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=22844 can I work out whether this is due to an inevitable consequence of something that Hert has temporarily overlooked, or to a bug.

This is what happens when I test this dynamic search on a simple test catalogue. I think the behaviour is as noted by David Grundy, but I am posting another description here to try and address this one point without any distraction. :wink:

I have 10 raw+jpeg pairs in the catalog. They are versioned such that "main" is always the raw. In 6 sets the jpeg is assigned as "AlbumDisplay" and in the other 4 sets no placeholders are assigned.

From "Catalog/by Version Placeholder", clicking "Version Sets" gives 10 items in the CV corresponding to the 10 version sets, displayed with "main" on view. Perfect.

Clicking "AlbumDisplay"gives 6 items corresponding to the sets with this placeholder assigned, displayed with the "AlbumDisplay" version on view. I might not have guessed which version would be displayed, but this is still perfectly reasonable.

Running an "AND" dynamic search for these two conditions gives the same result as clicking "AlbumDisplay". This is correct as the latter search result is entirely contained within the larger space of "Version Sets".

Now I, and judging by the opening quote Hert, would expect the 4 version sets without the "AlbumDisplay" placeholder assigned to a version to be revealed by changing the "AlbumDisplay" element of the dynamic search to an "Exclude".

Executing this search puts 14 items in the CV - all 10 version sets, displayed with "main" on view (As for "Version Sets"), and also the four version sets without an AlbumDisplay version, displayed with the jpeg on view. So, to get at the 4 version sets without "AlbumDisplay" versions I also have to add a file type filter for jpeg. However, this only works because I have raw+jpeg pairs; in other circumstances it would not be appropriate.

So, is this as Hert expects it to be?
Is there an easy way of getting the desired result?
If not, could/should there be?
Jim (Photo Supreme: AMD Quad-Core A8-5500 Accelerated Processor 3.2 GHz; internal AMD Radeon™ HD7560D; 4GB DDR3 SDRAM; Win10x64)

Hert
Posts: 6216
Joined: 13 Sep 03 7:24

Re: How to find all Versions without Placeholders?

Post by Hert » 17 Jul 13 8:13

So, is this as Hert expects it to be?
No, not as I expected.
Is there an easy way of getting the desired result?
Apparently not.
If not, could/should there be?
If enough people think they have a desperate need for this then I guess there should be. In the 5+ years that our tools support versioning, I don't recall hearing about this earlier. Does that mean that hardly anyone needs s search like "all versioned images without placeholders"? Or are there many that use workarounbds to achieve the same result? If so...how?
This is a User-to-User forum which means that users post questions here for other users.
Feature requests, change suggestions, or bugs can be logged in the ticketing system

David Grundy
Posts: 241
Joined: 13 May 07 16:40
Location: Hong Kong

Re: How to find all Versions without Placeholders?

Post by David Grundy » 17 Jul 13 10:57

Hert, it's a good questions as to why these questions come up now.

For myself ... the short answer:
For the first time, the basic stuff works for me. Now Managed Versions have reached to the top of the list of key features that don’t work properly for me.

Longer answer ...

I never used IDI much (too slow on my system at the time, so not usable for key tasks of review and rating photos) and so I never got far up the learning curve. So I never got to the point where Versioning questions were at the top of my list. PSu’s a different story – faster (on my newer PC, so I don’t know the true comparison) and easier to learn.

So I never really got around to worrying about Managed Versions until now. I tried out the capability, on a small scale, but there were always more fundamental things not working for me so I never really spent time thinking about the Managed Versions.

Since PSu is now working for me, I’m actually using it. And I’m actually starting to get properly organised. As new photos go in, I want them set up properly. The fundamental stuff is working for me, so it now feels worth my while to pursue the versioning questions and try to make that work for me as well. The basic capability of Managed Versions works, but the more advanced features don’t always exist or don’t always align with how I think about what I’m doing. So I'm pushing hard to make sure I actually understand what's available, and I'll make feature requests where I think there really is something that would enhance the experience significant ways.

(Figuring out what changes might be useful and are worth suggesting, is what the thread in the ChitChat section is for. BTW That thread has had a fairly average number of page views (given the age of the thread and the number of posts), so I guess people are about as interested in this topic as they are in other topics. But there are not many people contributing to the discussion and I don't know whether that's because people don't have views, or because people have well-defined implementation ideas already and are waiting for the right moment to suggest them.)

... David

jstartin
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Joined: 23 Aug 06 13:47
Location: UK

Re: How to find all Versions without Placeholders?

Post by jstartin » 17 Jul 13 14:07

IDimager wrote:
If enough people think they have a desperate need for this then I guess there should be. In the 5+ years that our tools support versioning, I don't recall hearing about this earlier. Does that mean that hardly anyone needs s search like "all versioned images without placeholders"? Or are there many that use workarounbds to achieve the same result? If so...how?
I don't know about "people", but for this one person PSU has made it easier to get to a point where such searches seem desirable than it ever was in IDI. With the basics under better control I want to be able to go a bit further with bringing better order and consistency to the catalog I have built up over several years.
Jim (Photo Supreme: AMD Quad-Core A8-5500 Accelerated Processor 3.2 GHz; internal AMD Radeon™ HD7560D; 4GB DDR3 SDRAM; Win10x64)

David Grundy
Posts: 241
Joined: 13 May 07 16:40
Location: Hong Kong

Re: How to find all Versions without Placeholders?

Post by David Grundy » 21 Jul 13 14:49

Hert, I'm sufficiently bothered by the feeling that all this doesn't quite get to where it should be, that I have worked up a fairly detailed suggestion for a broader implementation of Version Management. That suggestion is in the form of a hypothetical user manual for a future Photo Supreme.

Not everything is in that draft, but enough to give a flavour of what I'm thinking.

I think it's not really all that hard to move from where we are now on Version Management, to something which would be much more useful. I also believe that a comprehensive and flexible implementation of Version Management would be hard to resist, for anyone who has multiple versions of files and has actually tried a system that helps to organise that. I'm not saying that my suggestion is necessarily the right way to go (although I think it's quite a lot better than where we are now) but I am saying that Version Management feels like an afterthought in the current implementation, designed mainly for people with very small photo collections or who never make mistakes in workflow! (I can't remember whether I have said that before, or whether I deleted it the last couple of times I wrote it ...)

... David

Hert
Posts: 6216
Joined: 13 Sep 03 7:24

Re: How to find all Versions without Placeholders?

Post by Hert » 30 Jul 13 0:03

Hi David,

There was a bug that was raised when a placeholder was included in a dynamic search. I believe you also reported this in one of your topics, but I couldn't find it back. Anyway that was fixed in 1.9.0.142.

You can also make your placeholder a Favorite and then use the Filter Bar to filter on that Favorite

Hert
This is a User-to-User forum which means that users post questions here for other users.
Feature requests, change suggestions, or bugs can be logged in the ticketing system

David Grundy
Posts: 241
Joined: 13 May 07 16:40
Location: Hong Kong

Re: How to find all Versions without Placeholders?

Post by David Grundy » 30 Jul 13 2:06

Thanks for the update. I'll be trying it out sometime later this week.
(Then hopefully I'll remember to go back and edit that topic to note that this is fixed.)

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