Problem showing NEFs 'By Date'

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stevehughes
Posts: 82
Joined: 19 Jan 13 3:46
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Problem showing NEFs 'By Date'

Post by stevehughes » 23 Jun 13 11:31

I have a bad habit of shooting a bunch of NEFs and then forgetting about them - so the viewable JPGs never see the light of day.

I had a bright idea that a quick way to fix this would be to view the catalog 'By Date'. Ideally I would see the NEFs shot on that date as well as the resultant JPGs, and if there are no JPGs then I know I have just discovered some lost images :-)

However.... That's not what I am seeing. My JPGs always appear in the correct date, but the NEFs are hit and miss.

For example, I have a NEF shot on the 15-06-2013. PSU correctly renamed it during import so I assume that PSU is seeing the correct date. But in the 'By Date' view it appears in 2013-06-19.

http://www.scalar.com.au/download/SGH_2 ... _D7100.NEF

I wonder if anyone can help me figure out what gives.

Thanks,
Steve

Hert
Posts: 6336
Joined: 13 Sep 03 7:24

Re: Problem showing NEFs 'By Date'

Post by Hert » 23 Jun 13 11:45

PSU works with what is in the database. If this image displays in a wrong date then import the metadata for that image with Right click -> Metadata -> Read metadata from file
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stevehughes
Posts: 82
Joined: 19 Jan 13 3:46
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: Problem showing NEFs 'By Date'

Post by stevehughes » 23 Jun 13 12:33

OK, I did that but nothing changed. Even closed/reopened PSU but no change.

I selected the image and opened 'Info'. The date shown there is the 19th. Also if I open 'Details' the 'Date Content Created' is the 19th. But if i use EXIFTOOL on the file I get the result below which correctly shows the 15th, and doesn't seem to include any reference to the 19th. I've listed the output of EXIFTOOL below. There is also an XMP sidecar file which I have attached, but unless I am blind this doesn't include any reference to the 19th either.

ExifTool Version Number : 9.31
File Name : SGH_2013-06-15_142039-3_D7100.NEF
Directory : .
File Size : 31 MB
File Modification Date/Time : 2013:06:22 18:50:11+10:00
File Access Date/Time : 2013:06:23 21:25:20+10:00
File Creation Date/Time : 2013:06:23 21:25:20+10:00
File Permissions : rw-rw-rw-
File Type : NEF
MIME Type : image/x-nikon-nef
Exif Byte Order : Little-endian (Intel, II)
Make : NIKON CORPORATION
Camera Model Name : NIKON D7100
Orientation : Horizontal (normal)
Software : Ver.1.00
Modify Date : 2013:06:15 14:20:39
Artist :
Jpg From Raw Start : 1097216
Jpg From Raw Length : 3030773
Y Cb Cr Positioning : Co-sited
Image Width : 6036
Image Height : 4020
Bits Per Sample : 14
Compression : Nikon NEF Compressed
Photometric Interpretation : Color Filter Array
Strip Offsets : 4128256
Samples Per Pixel : 1
Rows Per Strip : 4022
Strip Byte Counts : 28486600
X Resolution : 300
Y Resolution : 300
Planar Configuration : Chunky
Resolution Unit : inches
CFA Repeat Pattern Dim : 2 2
CFA Pattern 2 : 0 1 1 2
Subfile Type : Reduced-resolution image
Other Image Start : 183808
Other Image Length : 912928
Reference Black White : 0 255 0 255 0 255
Copyright :
Exposure Time : 1/250
F Number : 8.0
Exposure Program : Program AE
ISO : 100
Sensitivity Type : Recommended Exposure Index
Create Date : 2013:06:15 14:20:39
Exposure Compensation : -1/3
Max Aperture Value : 3.5
Metering Mode : Multi-segment
Light Source : Unknown
Flash : Off, Did not fire
Focal Length : 16.0 mm
Maker Note Version : 2.11
Quality : RAW
White Balance : Auto1
Focus Mode : AF-S
Flash Setting :
Flash Type :
White Balance Fine Tune : 0 0
WB RB Levels : 2.24609375 1.73046875 1 1
Program Shift : 0
Exposure Difference : 0
Preview Image Start : 27136
Preview Image Length : 97377
Flash Exposure Compensation : 0
ISO Setting : 100
External Flash Exposure Comp : 0
Flash Exposure Bracket Value : 0.0
Exposure Bracket Value : 0
Crop Hi Speed : Off (6036x4020 cropped to 6036x4020 at pixel 0,0)
Exposure Tuning : 0
Serial Number : 2007440
Color Space : sRGB
VR Info Version : 0100
Vibration Reduction : On
VR Mode : Normal
Active D-Lighting : Off
Picture Control Version : 0100
Picture Control Name : Vivid
Picture Control Base : Vivid
Picture Control Adjust : Default Settings
Picture Control Quick Adjust : Normal
Brightness : Normal
Hue Adjustment : None
Filter Effect : n/a
Toning Effect : n/a
Toning Saturation : n/a
Timezone : +10:00
Daylight Savings : No
Date Display Format : D/M/Y
ISO Expansion : Off
ISO2 : 100
ISO Expansion 2 : Off
Auto Distortion Control : Off
Lens Type : G VR
Lens : 16-85mm f/3.5-5.6
Flash Mode : Did Not Fire
Shooting Mode : Continuous, Auto ISO
Contrast Curve : (Binary data 578 bytes, use -b option to extract)
Shot Info Version : 0227
Firmware Version : 1.00
NEF Compression : Lossless
Noise Reduction : Off
NEF Linearization Table : (Binary data 46 bytes, use -b option to extract)
Color Balance Version : 0218
Lens Data Version : 0204
Exit Pupil Position : 128.0 mm
AF Aperture : 3.6
Focus Position : 0x33
Focus Distance : 2.00 m
Lens ID Number : 153
Lens F Stops : 5.33
Min Focal Length : 16.3 mm
Max Focal Length : 84.8 mm
Max Aperture At Min Focal : 3.6
Max Aperture At Max Focal : 5.7
MCU Version : 155
Effective Max Aperture : 3.6
Raw Image Center : 3018 2010
Retouch History : None
Shutter Count : 3325
Flash Info Version : 0106
Vari Program :
Multi Exposure Version : 0100
Multi Exposure Mode : Off
Multi Exposure Shots : 0
Multi Exposure Auto Gain : Off
High ISO Noise Reduction : Normal
Power Up Time : 2013:04:15 16:56:04
AF Info 2 Version : 0100
Contrast Detect AF : Off
AF Area Mode : Single Area
Phase Detect AF : On (51-point)
Primary AF Point : C6 (Center)
AF Points Used : C6
Contrast Detect AF In Focus : No
File Info Version : 0100
Directory Number : 101
File Number : 3307
AF Fine Tune : On (1)
AF Fine Tune Index : n/a
AF Fine Tune Adj : 0
User Comment :
Sub Sec Time : 30
Sub Sec Time Original : 30
Sub Sec Time Digitized : 30
Sensing Method : One-chip color area
File Source : Digital Camera
Scene Type : Directly photographed
Custom Rendered : Normal
Exposure Mode : Auto
Digital Zoom Ratio : 1
Focal Length In 35mm Format : 16 mm
Scene Capture Type : Standard
Gain Control : None
Contrast : Normal
Saturation : Normal
Sharpness : Normal
Subject Distance Range : Unknown
GPS Version ID : 2.3.0.0
Date/Time Original : 2013:06:15 14:20:39
TIFF-EP Standard ID : 1 0 0 0
Aperture : 8.0
Auto Focus : On
Blue Balance : 1.730469
CFA Pattern : [Red,Green][Green,Blue]
Image Size : 6036x4020
Jpg From Raw : (Binary data 3030773 bytes, use -b option to extract)
Lens ID : AF-S DX VR Zoom-Nikkor 16-85mm f/3.5-5.6G ED
Lens : 16-85mm f/3.5-5.6 G VR
Other Image : (Binary data 912928 bytes, use -b option to extract)
Preview Image : (Binary data 97377 bytes, use -b option to extract)
Red Balance : 2.246094
Scale Factor To 35 mm Equivalent: 1.0
Shutter Speed : 1/250
Create Date : 2013:06:15 14:20:39.30
Date/Time Original : 2013:06:15 14:20:39.30
Modify Date : 2013:06:15 14:20:39.30
Circle Of Confusion : 0.030 mm
Depth Of Field : inf (0.70 m - inf)
Field Of View : 96.3 deg (4.45 m)
Focal Length : 16.0 mm (35 mm equivalent: 16.0 mm)
Hyperfocal Distance : 1.07 m
Light Value : 14.0
Attachments
SGH_2013-06-15_142039-3_D7100.XMP
(11.11 KiB) Downloaded 114 times

tstoddard
Posts: 578
Joined: 07 Sep 12 12:51

Re: Problem showing NEFs 'By Date'

Post by tstoddard » 23 Jun 13 14:39

Steve,

I think it is an issue related to PhotoNinja. I use PN also but I only use it to output jpg's. I have found that dates get messed up when photoninja creates the xmp file. If you delete the xmp file and then go to PSU and tell it to read metadata from file, PSU will create a new xmp file and the dates should be accurate. The problem is that if you do that you'll lose any changes that you made within photoninja. The original nef file won't be touched but any adjustments you made in photoninja will be lost.

I haven't had time to try to figure out what's happening but it would be worth contacting support at photo ninja to see if they can explain it. I have also run into some other issues with interoperability between photoninja and PSU because of PN's support of newer xmp standards. They are using Adobe's xmp kit to generate their xmp and apparently they're using the newest standards which most other programs have not yet adopted. I don't know if this has anything to do with the date issue but it has caused me some issues with lens information.

For now, I get around it by making adjustments and outputting the jpg and then discarding (not saving) the adjustments in photoninja. I always embed the adjustments I've made in the jpeg so I can always use the "re-edit" functionality in PN if I want to start from that point and create another jpg or edit the original jpg later.

It would be nice to solve this issue, though. Let me know if you decide to pursue it with PN. They are very responsive to support requests.

Also, it would be nice if PSU offered some way to overwrite data in the xmp sidecar file in instances like this. What seems to happen is if there is already an xmp file, PSU will read the metadata from that file and not from the NEF file when you ask it to read metadata from file. This is frustrating since you know that the data in the NEF file is accurate but you can't get PSU to use it.
Tom Stoddard

Hert
Posts: 6336
Joined: 13 Sep 03 7:24

Re: Problem showing NEFs 'By Date'

Post by Hert » 23 Jun 13 14:45

tstoddard wrote:The problem is that if you do that you'll lose any changes that you made within photoninja. The original nef file won't be touched but any adjustments you made in photoninja will be lost.
Instead of deleting the XMP file try using the ImageDetails panel, click the three lined menu button in the upper right corner and tell PSU o re-import the Exif to XMP. That should keep our edits and corrects the wrong dates written to XMP

Hert
This is a User-to-User forum which means that users post questions here for other users.
Feature requests, change suggestions, or bugs can be logged in the ticketing system

tstoddard
Posts: 578
Joined: 07 Sep 12 12:51

Re: Problem showing NEFs 'By Date'

Post by tstoddard » 23 Jun 13 15:10

Hert,

That's brilliant! It works. Thanks!

Let me clarify, however, that the only time I experience the date problem is if I use PhotoNinja to adjust my image before I've imported it into PSU. Apparently, it all depends on which program creates the xmp file. If PSU creates it, then PhotoNinja won't overwrite the dates and vice versa.

I'm glad PSU has an easy way to overcome this problem. Great job Hert!
Tom Stoddard

Hert
Posts: 6336
Joined: 13 Sep 03 7:24

Re: Problem showing NEFs 'By Date'

Post by Hert » 23 Jun 13 15:12

It's not about which tool creates the XMP, it's what the tool writes to the XMP ;) The first tool that creates the XMP should also do the Exif mapping to XMP. I think there is where PN does something wrong
This is a User-to-User forum which means that users post questions here for other users.
Feature requests, change suggestions, or bugs can be logged in the ticketing system

tstoddard
Posts: 578
Joined: 07 Sep 12 12:51

Re: Problem showing NEFs 'By Date'

Post by tstoddard » 23 Jun 13 15:18

Hert,

I've discovered a problem. When I go to the details panel and tell it to import metadata to xmp, the dates are updated correctly in the details panel but then when I apply the changes, the date time original reverts back to the incorrect date. It appears that when PN writes the dates, it writes the date that the adjustments were made to the date time original and it leaves the date time digitized empty (PSU show a 1899 date). When I import metatdata to xmp, both dates are fixed but then when I apply the changes, the date time original reverts back to the date that PN had put in the xmp file.
Tom Stoddard

tstoddard
Posts: 578
Joined: 07 Sep 12 12:51

Re: Problem showing NEFs 'By Date'

Post by tstoddard » 23 Jun 13 22:08

IDimager wrote:It's not about which tool creates the XMP, it's what the tool writes to the XMP ;) The first tool that creates the XMP should also do the Exif mapping to XMP. I think there is where PN does something wrong
Hert, I understand that PhotoNinja is mapping fields differently than PSU does but I don't understand why PSU is showing a date that doesn't exist in the xmp file that PhotoNinja creates. In my test file, all of the dates in the PhotoNinja xmp file indicate either 2013-06-21, which is when the picture was taken, or 2013-06-23 which is when the metadata was last changed. However, in the details panel in PSU the Date Time Original field displays a date of 2013-06-22. I don't see that date anywhere in the xmp file or the original NEF file.

I decided to test another file so I went back to a picture shot on 2013-06-09. I deleted the xmp file which PSU had created. I opened the NEF file in PhotoNinja and made a slight adjustment and let PhotoNinja create a new xmp file. Then I went back to PSU and read the metadata from the file and this time the Date Time Original shows 2013-06-20 2:54:49-04:00. I have no idea where PSU would have gotten that date and time. It doesn't match anything associated with the original NEF or the XMP file.
Tom Stoddard

stevehughes
Posts: 82
Joined: 19 Jan 13 3:46
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: Problem showing NEFs 'By Date'

Post by stevehughes » 23 Jun 13 22:21

Thanks for the extra details and the testing Tom. I have nothing to add except to note that I see the same as you. In other words, I cant find any reference to the date PSU is recording in either the NEF or the XMP file. I have no idea where PSU is getting that date from.

On the PN side of life, I've felt for a while that PN is doing 'something funny' with EXIF data, because if I upload a PN-created JPG to DPReview it appears there as 'No EXIF'. The EXIF info looks 'reasonable' to me but it would appear that something is not quite right, whatever that means !

tstoddard
Posts: 578
Joined: 07 Sep 12 12:51

Re: Problem showing NEFs 'By Date'

Post by tstoddard » 23 Jun 13 23:36

Steve,

I had contacted PN support a while back about issues I was having with some other metadata fields and they told me that they were using Adobe's xmp toolkit. I don't know if that would include embedding metadata into jpegs or only the xmp portion of that. I think, the issue comes down to different products supporting/implementing different standards. I try to be very careful now about which programs I allow to write metadata to my files but in the instance of creating a jpeg, you have to let the program that's creating it to do so. As a result, I get some of the same problems you're describing.

Ironically, in one instance, PN gives me metadata that PSU does not. In PSU, the focal distance doesn't get imported from my NEF files into the PSU database for some reason. When I create a jpeg with PN, and import that jpg into PSU, the focal distance is found and displayed.

It's frustrating. No one program can do everything I need to do but no two programs seem to be able to handle metadata the same way so there is always some issue no matter how careful and strategic you are. I'm afraid there will never be a time when they all work perfectly together. I'd love to see the developers of PSU, PhotoNinja, and FastPictureViewer get together and produce one product that incorporates the best of each of their current products.
Tom Stoddard

tstoddard
Posts: 578
Joined: 07 Sep 12 12:51

Re: Problem showing NEFs 'By Date'

Post by tstoddard » 26 Jun 13 22:49

Steve,

I've had some interesting dialog on Mantis about this issue. You might want to follow the progress of this issue:

http://bugs.idimager.com/view.php?id=1575

It appears that the inaccurate date is the result of PSU's interpretation of PN's time value. PhotoNinja represents subseconds (fractions of seconds) to 9 decimal places. This is unusual but from what I have found, it appears to be allowed in the specifications. Hert has said that he will fix this in the next update to PSU. I've sent an email to support at PhotoNinja but have not heard back from them yet. I just thought you would find this informative.
Tom Stoddard

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