Does PSU overwrite Lightroom's DNG develop settings

Tom
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Does PSU overwrite Lightroom's DNG develop settings

Post by Tom » 11 Jun 13 14:28

I know PSU should not overwrite the develop settings made in Lightroom 4. But here is what happens:

1) Import image from PSU to LR4. (Keywords and IPTC data is imported as well).
2) LR4: Make changes to the image in the LR4 Develop module
3) LR4: Click "Save metadata to file"
4) LR4: For testing, click "Read metadata from file". The previous develop settings are retained, so far OK. Go to PSU.
5) PSU: Click "Save Metadata to file". Go back to LR4
6) LR4: Click "Read metadata from file". NOW THE DEVELOP SETTINGS GET LOST, the DNG image turns to its initial state inherited from PSU.

Please explain what is happening.

Toomas
Last edited by Tom on 11 Jun 13 14:50, edited 1 time in total.

Hert
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Re: Does PSU overwrite Lightroom's DNG develop settings

Post by Hert » 11 Jun 13 14:32

Shouldn't you read the LR4 metadata back to PSU somewhere? Maybe after saving the metadata to file with LR?
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Tom
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Re: Does PSU overwrite Lightroom's DNG develop settings

Post by Tom » 11 Jun 13 14:49

Thanks. Please notice that this is what I did in the line 3 of my procedure.

Hert
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Re: Does PSU overwrite Lightroom's DNG develop settings

Post by Hert » 11 Jun 13 14:51

Line 3 is in LR, that's not what I mean.

Between line 3 and 4: PSU: read metadata from file

That reads the metadata that LR has ćhanged back to PSU
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Tom
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Re: Does PSU overwrite Lightroom's DNG develop settings

Post by Tom » 11 Jun 13 14:58

OK, understood. But then is the question: does PSU import the LR development settings in its database? Aren't the development settings stored in the DNG metadata, which PSU should not "touch"?

Toomas

Hert
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Re: Does PSU overwrite Lightroom's DNG develop settings

Post by Hert » 11 Jun 13 15:31

Development settings from Lightroom are stored in XMP
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mphillips
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Re: Does PSU overwrite Lightroom's DNG develop settings

Post by mphillips » 11 Jun 13 15:35

Hi Toomas

May a better workflow would be to:
1) Import image from PSU to LR4. (Keywords and IPTC data is imported as well).
2) LR4: Make changes to the image in the LR4 Develop module
3) LR4: Click "Save metadata to file"


New Step- Option 1) PSU:Verify Folder _ Import Changes
New Step Option 2 ) PSU - Right Click - Read Meta data from file

NOW PSU has the most up to date metadata in its database.
Then you could

4) LR4: For testing, click "Read metadata from file". The previous develop settings are retained, so far OK. Go to PSU.
5) PSU: Click "Save Metadata to file". Go back to LR4
6) LR4: Click "Read metadata from file".


Regards

MikeP
Mike Phillips
http://www.mikeandmorag.co.za
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andy@damroundup.com
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Re: Does PSU overwrite Lightroom's DNG develop settings

Post by andy@damroundup.com » 14 Jun 13 15:36

I guess I too am still confused by this... I would think the whole process should be automated because of autosync? [I've always hoped for this...]

So... this is the workflow I would use and hope it would work (not tested):

1 - import images into Idimager, rate, label, etc - catalog data is written out to file via autosync and XMP block is built.
2 - import image into LR - metadata is read into LR's catalog and should now be in sync with what is in Supreme.
3 - Make adjustments to image in LR and update DNG preview / Write Meta data to file - LR instructions and preview are now updated in the file and match the LR catalog.
4 - Idimager (still running) sees a change to the file, updates the catalog by reading the XMP data from the file, updates the thumbnail and catalog preview image (if used).

Is this not the process? If so, then what exactly does auto-sync do and why would this not be the preferred action of the sync process?

Thx! - Andy,
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Tom
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Re: Does PSU overwrite Lightroom's DNG develop settings

Post by Tom » 14 Jun 13 16:24

Thank you all for your replies. The problem which I highlighted did not get an answer though. Here I rephrase it:

Does PSU overwrite (erase) the develop settings of LR in the XMP, when metadata is written from the PSU's database to file?

It should not, but sometimes it happens, and sometimes not. I can not get hold of the consistent workflow.

What I wish is that the IPTC tags and keywords be updated and then synchronised between the file, PSU and LR, whereas the develop settings of LR should remain intact.

Toomas

mphillips
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Re: Does PSU overwrite Lightroom's DNG develop settings

Post by mphillips » 14 Jun 13 16:42

Hi Toomas

To answer your question simply - NOPE - its does not overwrite anything in the XMP AS LONG AS ITS KNOWS ITS THERE - and that "data" exists in PSU!

So That is why I recommend Importing any changes made outside of PSU into PSU via the Verify Folder method - so that you are 100% certain that PSU is 100% Current before you write out the changes from PSU to the metadata.

And Andy

I think - but am willing to be corrected - that Auto Sync (the similar operation to the old file monitor) only works when you have "Automatically Write Out Changes to Images" switched on. I don't have that switched on because of the performance hit when working on my images. If thats not the case them PSU is unreliable at best at picking up changes made in outside programs and automatically updating either the metadata or the Thumbs. I think that the two "old" facets have been collapsed into one feature there - the old 'write out changes as I make them in IDimager ' has been combined with the old 'check images for changes made by outside programs and automatically import those changes into IDimager

Anyway I always run a Verify folder after making changes to make sure I have imported ALL the changes made by other programs into PSU.

Regards

MikeP
Mike Phillips
http://www.mikeandmorag.co.za
D800, CNX2, Supreme

fbungarz
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Re: Does PSU overwrite Lightroom's DNG develop settings

Post by fbungarz » 15 Jun 13 0:41

Hi Tom,
Does PSU overwrite (erase) the develop settings of LR in the XMP, when metadata is written from the PSU's database to file?
Actually Hert did answer that question, when he wrote:
Development settings from Lightroom are stored in XMP
This simply means:
You work in Lightroom, then store the settings to XMP. Lightrrom writes out the development changes to XMP:
3) LR4: Click "Save metadata to file"
You verify that those changes are correctly written:
4) LR4: For testing, click "Read metadata from file". The previous develop settings are retained, so far OK. Go to PSU.
So far, so good...
Then you go to PSU and tell it to do the same, store the metadata to XMP:
5) PSU: Click "Save Metadata to file". Go back to LR4
Now - PSU cannot possibly know that you changed SOME (not all) metadata outside in LR4, it is unaware of these changes. Therefore, it consequently overwrites the metadata in the file with the metadata in its database and YES, of course it overwrites the changes!

The answers that followed, said you need to tell PSU to READ the metadata from XMP, only then it picks up the changes from LR4. However, that also means that LR4 needs to read the metadata in order not to overwrite the PSU metadata.

To put this very simple:
PSU is a database, that stores metadata in its database
LR$ is a database, that also stores metadata in its database
Images also store metadata, as XMP

Use PSU to change metadata inside the image XMP, LR4 does not know about it. Use LR4 to change image XMP, PSU does not know about it.

Andy:
And this has actually nothing to do with autosync on or off. Autosync only syncs automatically, and it should work bi-directional. BUT, here is the catch: of course it can only know that changes were if the File Monitor picks them up. In IDI there was an option to turn the file monitor on when IDI was inactive. Unfortunately turning the file monitor on never worked well and drained resources. How this is implemented in PSU, I have no idea, but generally I would assume IDI/PSU can only "watch" how other applications modified xmp in the files IF at least their file monitor is still running, i.e., if the whole application has not completely turned off.

Now: In the scenario Tom lined out he also always used one-directional sync, either reading or writing metadata to the files. In theory, writing will overwrite ALL XMP data in an image file, reading will overwrite all metadata in the database with data from the file and bi-directional should actually compare which metadata entries are newer, in the file or in the database. But again the catch, now idea how this is implemented in PSU, but if I understand sync in IDI correctly, auto-sync can only check if the whole, complete metadata block is newer or older in the file or database. If I understand this correctly, checking each entry (keywords, development settings, title, header, GPS, etc. etc.) individually would be much too resource intense.

Much of this applies to IDI, but I would think wit will not be much different in PSU. Hert can correct me if I am wrong (sorry still not using PSU on a regular base...).

Hope that helps...

Frank

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Re: Does PSU overwrite Lightroom's DNG develop settings

Post by andy@damroundup.com » 15 Jun 13 2:54

Hey Frank - thanks for your insight... I guess where I'm hung up in this process is the fact that I am writing the data out to the images in ALL cases (as is Tom).

1 - Idimager: tag, label, rate, etc -> Write XMP to file
2 - Lightroom: Make edits, crop, heck even add a color label -> Write XMP to file

Since I am writing the XMP to the file, I would expect each application to automatically know the file was changed (the file date/time is updated) and subsequently read these changes into their database. There is no need to then re-write the changes back to the file thus overwriting the other application - only the changed bits should be written to the XMP and I would expect the full XMP to be read into the catalog thus writing back out to the image wouldn't miss/delete any data... I guess this is an ideal situation and not something that is currently happening.. but it sure would make using multiple applications so much easier!

Always welcome to hear other thoughts on the matter....
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Tom
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Re: Does PSU overwrite Lightroom's DNG develop settings

Post by Tom » 15 Jun 13 9:18

Now Hert will be very angry because you mix up Idimager and PSU :)

Thank you Frank for your detailed explanation. I knew this, except the fact that XMP is overwritten as a whole when "write metadata to file". Although it is logical, of course. I would now experiment with sync options in PSU and LR4, maybe it would solve my workflow to keep the LR develop settings intact while writing the PSU details and attributes to XMP (?). I hope Hert could answer this easily.

And thank you Andy for your support

Toomas

fbungarz
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Re: Does PSU overwrite Lightroom's DNG develop settings

Post by fbungarz » 15 Jun 13 15:27

Hi Toomas,
I am not sure it is a good idea to tell PSU ignore a particular set of metadata, in this case the LR4 development settings. Imagine a scenario: you work in PSU to catalog your images, export them to LiR and do some edits, meanwhile notice a keyword is missing, so you add this. Back in PSU you load the XMP into PSU. Now, the keyword will be there, but image adjustments from LR missing, the thumb still look the same, not updated. Won't that be odd? And how helpful would it be if yuo did not know in PSU which ones of your images were edited? Would that not defy the purpose of a cataloging software?

So - you need to make PSU aware of your LR edits, and then they are not overwritten, because they are then also in the PSU database. What you gain: in PSU you know which images were edited. If PSU ignores that set of metadata that LR writes, then you loose that information.

Frank

Tom
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Re: Does PSU overwrite Lightroom's DNG develop settings

Post by Tom » 15 Jun 13 17:01

fbungarz wrote:Hi Toomas,
you need to make PSU aware of your LR edits, and then they are not overwritten, because they are then also in the PSU database.
Frank
You say PSU would store the LR develop settings in its database? Does this mean that the whole XMP content is stored in the PSU database, when data is read from file? Khmm... Does this mean that in principle it is possible to see the LR edits within PSU?

Toomas

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