Delimiter choice

Mike Buckley
Posts: 1194
Joined: 10 Jul 08 14:18

Re: Delimiter choice

Post by Mike Buckley » 17 Dec 12 16:19

IDimager wrote: As you can see, you don't need "delimited" keywords. There's no additional value over using LR keywords from the application's point of view.
That's very helpful information, Hert. Actually, it's so obvious that I am embarrassed that I have never thought of it.

The reason I haven't has to do with my shortsightedness with regard to the explanation in the Help screen pertaining to the use of Lightroom keywords: I have always glossed over that explanation thinking that I didn't need to concern myself with it because I don't use Lightroom. You might want to consider adding a sentence to the Help screen indicating that the use of Lightroom keywords can be helpful even if one doesn't use Lightroom.
Evolution has made the use of delimited keywords a "bad choice". Also keep in mind that, by specifications, Keywords (dc:subject) are *supposed* to be flat. So using intelligence like delimiters inside the content is asking for problems now or in the future. Always better to use data how it's intended to be used and not add intelligence that is proprietary.
Two excellent points! Considering that Supreme is intended to be simple to use, I have to wonder why you decided to make it possible to write delimited keywords, which is yet another choice the user has to decide upon. Perhaps your decision about that has to do with making it as easy as possible to migrate from IDimager to Supreme in the sense that those writing delimited keywords in IDimager can continue doing so in Supreme, despite that it's not advisable with either product.

Hert
Posts: 5925
Joined: 13 Sep 03 7:24

Re: Delimiter choice

Post by Hert » 17 Dec 12 16:30

Mike,
I have to wonder why you decided to make it possible to write delimited keywords
Very valid point... it slipped when I reviewed the options that should return in PSU. Then again, I would have been flamed for it if I did remove it, hahaha

Hert
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Mike Buckley
Posts: 1194
Joined: 10 Jul 08 14:18

Re: Delimiter choice

Post by Mike Buckley » 17 Dec 12 16:50

IDimager wrote: Then again, I would have been flamed for it if I did remove it, hahaha
I definitely would have placed a large bet on that happening!

tstoddard
Posts: 578
Joined: 07 Sep 12 12:51

Re: Delimiter choice

Post by tstoddard » 17 Dec 12 17:14

Hert,

Thank you for the thorough explanation. It finally makes sense to me.
IDimager wrote:Because it's already written. Use the "Assign Parent Labels" if you want separate entries for each hierarchy in your keywords (LR and Flat). E.g.

Countries -> Europe -> Belgium

if Belgium has parent label assigns ON then you'll get flat keywords:
Belgium
Europe
Countries

And Hierarchical Keywords:
Countries/Europe/Belgium
Countries/Europe
Countries

If Belgium does NOT have parent label assign ON then you'll get flat keywords:
Belgium

And Hierarchical Keywords:
Countries/Europe/Belgium

My vote would go to the latter.
I guess the only variable at this point is how other programs handle keywords. If they see the "Lightroom keywords" then they will be aware of the parent keywords (even if they don't recognize the hierarchy). If they don't see the Lightroom keywords then not assigning parent keywords could have a less than optimal result but nothing too severe for my purposes. I think my vote is also for the latter configuration.
Tom Stoddard

gcoupe
Posts: 244
Joined: 16 Mar 05 19:29
Location: Heelweg, The Netherlands

Re: Delimiter choice

Post by gcoupe » 17 Dec 12 22:55

IDimager wrote:Mike,
I have to wonder why you decided to make it possible to write delimited keywords
Very valid point... it slipped when I reviewed the options that should return in PSU. Then again, I would have been flamed for it if I did remove it, hahaha

Hert
Well, I would certainly protest very loudly - I rely on it being there.
Geoff Coupe
--------------
Photo Supreme /Windows 10 Pro 64 bits + Windows Home Server 2011 = DAM

Hert
Posts: 5925
Joined: 13 Sep 03 7:24

Re: Delimiter choice

Post by Hert » 18 Dec 12 0:14

Just curious, but why's that Geoff?
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gcoupe
Posts: 244
Joined: 16 Mar 05 19:29
Location: Heelweg, The Netherlands

Re: Delimiter choice

Post by gcoupe » 18 Dec 12 7:43

As I say here:
I chose the “/” character because Microsoft’s Windows Photo Gallery uses it as the separator to structure the keyword hierarchy.

Because Windows Photo Gallery is easy to use for other family members, I’ve adopted this method of implementing a keyword hierarchy, i.e. using the “/” separator, in my main DAM tool: IDimager (and now PSU).

Now, the reason that both IDimager and Windows Photo Gallery have the same keyword hierarchy is that both tools are constructing it from the keywords stored in the photo metadata. And because they understand that the “/” is the separator character, they build up the same keyword structure on the fly as they read the photos in my collection. IDimager (PSU) is the more flexible of the two applications, since you can define different separator characters if necessary. WPG is fixed, and only understands the “/” character.
Geoff Coupe
--------------
Photo Supreme /Windows 10 Pro 64 bits + Windows Home Server 2011 = DAM

Hert
Posts: 5925
Joined: 13 Sep 03 7:24

Re: Delimiter choice

Post by Hert » 18 Dec 12 9:32

Geoff,

Did you also verify if WLPG somehow supports reading the Lightroom Hierarchical keywords?

Hert
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gcoupe
Posts: 244
Joined: 16 Mar 05 19:29
Location: Heelweg, The Netherlands

Re: Delimiter choice

Post by gcoupe » 18 Dec 12 11:02

Hert,

As far as I'm aware, it does not support the LR XMP schema. It just looks at the dc:subject field and treats a "/" character as a hierarchy delimiter.

That's why, in that blog post I quoted, it ends up getting confused by the flat list of keywords that LR adds when it writes out metadata. Because PSU prioritises LR Hierarchy XMP metadata over the contents of dc:subject, that's also why PSU does not get confused by LR.
Geoff Coupe
--------------
Photo Supreme /Windows 10 Pro 64 bits + Windows Home Server 2011 = DAM

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