Verify folder --> Version detection: instructions?

jstartin
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Verify folder --> Version detection: instructions?

Post by jstartin » 30 Nov 12 22:52

The automatic version detection just added (in 1.5.0.76) to verify folders seems, from a brief set of tests, to be fantastic and a major advance in PSU functionality.

But, Hert, please would you supply just a little bit of information so that users can have some confidence that they have naming and folder use set up to allow version detection to perform at its best, and are not trying to push it beyond what it is designed to do.

Specifically:
It seems to use some intelligent file matching. Is this based on partial filenames or something else?
If it is partial filenames, how much/which parts have to match?
It works across folder/subfolders, but where does it search and not search for "hits"?
Is there, or will there be, some means of controlling how the main version is assigned?

Know these things would save a great deal to user investigation.

Also, I wonder whether there should be some way of turning it off, if it is unwanted :wink: .
Jim (Photo Supreme: AMD Quad-Core A8-5500 Accelerated Processor 3.2 GHz; internal AMD Radeon™ HD7560D; 4GB DDR3 SDRAM; Win10x64)

Hert
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Re: Verify folder --> Version detection: instructions?

Post by Hert » 01 Dec 12 9:12

Jim,
jstartin wrote:It seems to use some intelligent file matching. Is this based on partial filenames or something else?
It's matching on filenames only
If it is partial filenames, how much/which parts have to match?
The filename must match a (part) of the file name of existing files.
It works across folder/subfolders, but where does it search and not search for "hits"?
In the full catalog.
Is there, or will there be, some means of controlling how the main version is assigned?
Maybe in the future. I want to keep this simple and transparent.
Also, I wonder whether there should be some way of turning it off, if it is unwanted :wink: .
What's the deal with people wanting to control everything? :wink:

Hert
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pmui07g
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Re: Verify folder --> Version detection: instructions?

Post by pmui07g » 01 Dec 12 17:31

Hi Hert,
It works across folder/subfolders, but where does it search and not search for "hits"?

In the full catalog.
I have two photos and they have the same name DSC_0286, shot by D90 in Sep 2009 and D600 in Oct 2012. Somehow, PSU put them under the same version (after Verify Folder), which is not my intention.

How to avoid this problem please?

Phil

Mike Buckley
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Re: Verify folder --> Version detection: instructions?

Post by Mike Buckley » 01 Dec 12 23:07

Phil,

You might want to consider reading about the best practices that pertain to renaming files rather than using the filenames generated by the camera, as that is one of the most fundamental aspects of digital asset management. Though you'll find a lot of file-naming conventions suggested, I'm confident that all of them will provide for each file having its own unique name. If you make that so with your files, you will never experience the issue that you are describing. I highly recommend the following web site: http://www.dpbestflow.org/file-management/file-naming

pmui07g
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Joined: 26 Sep 12 11:53

Re: Verify folder --> Version detection: instructions?

Post by pmui07g » 02 Dec 12 15:30

Mike,

Thanks for the suggestion and it's time to learn the best practices of DAM.

Cheers,
Phil

jstartin
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Location: UK

Re: Verify folder --> Version detection: instructions?

Post by jstartin » 02 Dec 12 17:26

Phil
As Mike said, you must make sure file names are unique, for all sorts of reasons.
After you decide on a file naming scheme, then renaming your files with PSU should be quite straightforward. For your existing files "Catalog/by image details/technical/model" should give you instant separation of images from each camera, ready for application of a retrospective renaming with "Batch/rename file".
If you don't want to do anything elaborate, you could consider adding the camera model to the original name, or replacing "DSC" in the names with "D90" and "D600" (thereby keeping names as short as possible).
Jim (Photo Supreme: AMD Quad-Core A8-5500 Accelerated Processor 3.2 GHz; internal AMD Radeon™ HD7560D; 4GB DDR3 SDRAM; Win10x64)

weidmic
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Re: Verify folder --> Version detection: instructions?

Post by weidmic » 02 Dec 12 17:49

The renaming rule I use now for some years is:
%yy-%mm-%dd_%exif:Model%code Input := StrTran (Input, 'Nikon D', 'D'); %/code_%exifmakernote:ShutterCount.%FileExtension

result would be:
10-12-23_D700_16029.nef

HTH
Michael
PSUServer 4.x, PostgreSQL 10.x
My homepage http://www.michaelweidner.com
PSU Tips and Tricks http://www.michaelweidner.com/WP/psu/

jstartin
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Location: UK

Re: Verify folder --> Version detection: instructions?

Post by jstartin » 03 Dec 12 1:00

Long post I'm afraid, but the last three (short) paragraphs are the "meat"

Hert,
IDimager wrote:
jstartin wrote:Is there, or will there be, some means of controlling how the main version is assigned?
Maybe in the future. I want to keep this simple and transparent.
.....
What's the deal with people wanting to control everything? :wink:
Bothering with DAM software at all is exerting a form of control - it should be no surprise that users want to control the "how" as well :wink:.
Seriously, sometimes having a bit of control over what happens helps to make operation more "simple and transparent" for the user, so we get the desired outcome easily. The import control panel makes versioning optional and has a version rule; why not the same for "verify-versioning"?

Moving on, my understanding now is that (please correct anything I have wrong) when a file is added to the catalogue using verify (let's call it "addedfile.ext"):
PSU searches the catalogue for any/all files matching "*addedfile*.*"
"addedfile.ext" and all matches are put together as a version set
some file from the set other than "addedfile.ext" will be designated "main" (apparently randomly, but I guess it depends on which database rows they have ended up in)
where all the files are in the folder structure on disk is completely irrelevant.

I start with raw-only photographs (the camera gives me control of this and I have made my choice :wink: ).
I bring the raw files into PSU as soon as possible. File names are simple modifications of the camera-supplied name (modified to ensure they are unique).
I apply some labels straight away (before I forget where I was etc.)
Conversion to "derived" files happens later and usually piecemeal. Quite often I process or reprocess raws dating back months or even years (changing priorities, new techniques, new software possibilities etc, and perhaps in hope of applying increased skill and judgement). Derived files I always name as "rawfilename+suffix.ext".

I rely on DAM to bring order to my disorganised "workflow" as well as to just "find things". Versioning is important to me, but not yet "simple" enough because I don't have the right options available (Didn't have the ideal process in IDI either, by the way).

Because my derived files don't arrive until after the raws are in the catalogue, to use "verify-versioning" I have to remove raw files from the catalogue and then allow verify to find and add them again, trusting in the XMP sidecars to restore my labels etc. This is workable but inconvenient, and makes me nervous (is everything in sync, or not).

At any one time, some catalogued raw files will have no derivatives at all, some will have just one jpeg derivative, quite a few will have multiple derivatives. The multiple derivatives may include either or both of different rendering options and different sizes. New derivatives for old raws get produced over time, as the fancy takes me. So, I want to version, version again, and again when unversioned derivatives are present (they are easy to track down in PSU), and again....!

Am I alone in working like this?

For me, and perhaps some others, a few enhancements to PSU would make an enormous difference.

1. Make the versioning process available for a selection by a direct instruction. For example from the "Operations" submenu of the CV context menu. With this available I would probably want to turn off "verify-versioning" and take charge myself of what happens when.

2. Option to make a particular file type the "main" of a version set. I would prefer to have main = raw, always, if only to have consistency and predictability throughout the catalogue.

3. More difficult: what I think of as "reverse searching". Find the raw file with a name that matches the left n characters of the name of a selected file. Add selected file to the versions for that raw (without disturbing any assigned placeholders for other versions already added).
Jim (Photo Supreme: AMD Quad-Core A8-5500 Accelerated Processor 3.2 GHz; internal AMD Radeon™ HD7560D; 4GB DDR3 SDRAM; Win10x64)

Hert
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Re: Verify folder --> Version detection: instructions?

Post by Hert » 03 Dec 12 11:02

Jim,

You're mainly thinking from you own workflow. You assume that versioning works for RAW+JPG combinations but don't forget that there are as many workflows as there are photographers. Not everyone works with RAW/JPG combinations. There are many that use JPG/JPG versions, or TIF/JPG or RAW/TIF/JPG combinations etc etc

To answer your first question: press Ctrl/Cmd+Shift+V

Hert
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David Grundy
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Re: Verify folder --> Version detection: instructions?

Post by David Grundy » 03 Dec 12 15:39

Thanks Hert for the pointer to Ctrl+Shift+V; as far as I can see this isn't in the keyboard shortcuts list at the moment so I wouldn't have found this. (It's a bit dangerous to try key combinations randomly - never quite know what undocumented feature might change something unexpectedly; so I tend not to find things out by accident.)

It's good to see that version detection has arrived. I assumed it would at some point since otherwise it's hard to see how anyone who shoots a lot of images would make much use of versions.

For my own workflow, I tend to create derivatives only for a minority of images, and I want to control when the versioning happens. For me there is a bit of a difficulty with the current implementation: the original file has the short form of the name, and the derivative always has an appendix to the name. So I have to run the version detection from the original file. But then, the derivative file becomes the Main version, which is exactly what I don't want to have happen. Could you consider implementing something like either
(1) give an option to invert the file name matching rule, so that I can run version detection from the derivative; or
(2) give the option that the file selected when I run version detection will be the Main version in the set?
I understand that you may not want to go to the complexity of the options in the IDI5 VDW; but at the moment I'm a bit stuck.

Other things that I found a bit awkward:
(1) I selected a single file and ran version detection. It found the version, but the file I had selected disappeared from the collection viewer and I had to view another selection and then come back before I could see my file again. Then it's a bit of a pain to find the specific file again if it happens to be in a large folder. (I often end up with hundreds of images in one folder.)
(2) After creating the version set in this way, I then broke the version set, and after that I found that version detection no longer works on that file. Even after exiting and restarting PSu.

... David
[edit: I forgot to "sign", and it felt impolite]

jstartin
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Re: Verify folder --> Version detection: instructions?

Post by jstartin » 03 Dec 12 18:41

David Grundy wrote: (2) After creating the version set in this way, I then broke the version set, and after that I found that version detection no longer works on that file. Even after exiting and restarting PSu.
I've found this too, but it seems to work again if all of the files are first resynced.
Jim (Photo Supreme: AMD Quad-Core A8-5500 Accelerated Processor 3.2 GHz; internal AMD Radeon™ HD7560D; 4GB DDR3 SDRAM; Win10x64)

jstartin
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Re: Verify folder --> Version detection: instructions?

Post by jstartin » 03 Dec 12 19:18

IDimager wrote: You're mainly thinking from you own workflow. You assume that versioning works for RAW+JPG combinations but don't forget that there are as many workflows as there are photographers. Not everyone works with RAW/JPG combinations. There are many that use JPG/JPG versions, or TIF/JPG or RAW/TIF/JPG combinations etc etc
Hert,
I do try to think more broadly, really, and I don't assume that only RAW/JPG are of interest. I was describing MY situation and wishes, and hoping others would respond with their own :wink: .
To answer your first question: press Ctrl/Cmd+Shift+V
Excellent. Simple? fairly simple once known. Transparent? not to me.
Jim (Photo Supreme: AMD Quad-Core A8-5500 Accelerated Processor 3.2 GHz; internal AMD Radeon™ HD7560D; 4GB DDR3 SDRAM; Win10x64)

Hert
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Re: Verify folder --> Version detection: instructions?

Post by Hert » 03 Dec 12 20:01

jstartin wrote:Transparent? not to me.
It's not transparent because its not an "official" feature. Else you wouldn't have heard about it in this way ;). And it's not official because its not finished yet. How it behaves may still completely change. Keep that in mind.

Hert
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jstartin
Posts: 400
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Location: UK

Re: Verify folder --> Version detection: instructions?

Post by jstartin » 03 Dec 12 20:22

IDimager wrote: It's not transparent because its not an "official" feature. Else you wouldn't have heard about it in this way ;). And it's not official because its not finished yet. How it behaves may still completely change. Keep that in mind.
Then thanks for the early tip off. I will shut up and wait.
Jim (Photo Supreme: AMD Quad-Core A8-5500 Accelerated Processor 3.2 GHz; internal AMD Radeon™ HD7560D; 4GB DDR3 SDRAM; Win10x64)

Hert
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Re: Verify folder --> Version detection: instructions?

Post by Hert » 03 Dec 12 20:49

jstartin wrote:
David Grundy wrote: (2) After creating the version set in this way, I then broke the version set, and after that I found that version detection no longer works on that file. Even after exiting and restarting PSu.
I've found this too, but it seems to work again if all of the files are first resynced.
I was able to reproduce this too. Hmm, the reason is because the search data for the version, which now becomes a normal entry, is lost. The version detection works on the search data. Fixed for the next update. Actually this is critical and I may release an in-between version for this.

Hert
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