Label Assignment Panel Requests

jstartin
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Location: UK

Re: Label Assignment Panel Requests

Post by jstartin » 02 Nov 12 12:41

jstartin wrote:The Tree View would look very much like the By Categories view of the catalogue, but with the addition of check boxes (similar to the assignment mode of the catalogue explorer in IDI). The tree would expand/contract from arrowheads or by double clicking. None of the functions of the catalogue explorer would be duplicated, this panel would be solely for label assignment.
Just posting a quick, rough and ready mockup of how it might look. Just imagine that the 2 labels at the top of the panel are tabs, and the counter buttons are check boxes.
PSU LAP tree mockup.jpg
PSU LAP tree mockup.jpg (92.58 KiB) Viewed 5369 times
Jim (Photo Supreme: AMD Quad-Core A8-5500 Accelerated Processor 3.2 GHz; internal AMD Radeon™ HD7560D; 4GB DDR3 SDRAM; Win10x64)

gcoupe
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Location: Heelweg, The Netherlands

Re: Label Assignment Panel Requests

Post by gcoupe » 02 Nov 12 18:35

I like it. For the most part, I personally use the LAP, but I completely understand that there are those whose working methods gravitate towards the Tree view.
Geoff Coupe
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Photo Supreme /Windows 10 Pro 64 bits + Windows Home Server 2011 = DAM

Lou_Salkind
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Re: Label Assignment Panel Requests

Post by Lou_Salkind » 02 Nov 12 19:15

Why not just use drag and drop into the Catalog Explorer to label using the catalog tree, rather than adding more complexity to the LAP?

gcoupe
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Re: Label Assignment Panel Requests

Post by gcoupe » 02 Nov 12 19:30

Lou_Salkind wrote:Why not just use drag and drop into the Catalog Explorer to label using the catalog tree, rather than adding more complexity to the LAP?
Yes... I can see that this sort of works. But you have to be using Catalog Labels for Import sessions, in order to display them as part of the total Catalog label tree. It can't be used (as far as I can see) if you want to view by Folder, and then drag and drop across to the Catalog Labels. That's because once you've navigated to the correct Folder, as soon as you switch back to the Labels tree, the context switches to the last view on the tree, and you lose the Folder view...
Geoff Coupe
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Photo Supreme /Windows 10 Pro 64 bits + Windows Home Server 2011 = DAM

jstartin
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Location: UK

Re: Label Assignment Panel Requests

Post by jstartin » 02 Nov 12 22:42

gcoupe wrote:
Lou_Salkind wrote:Why not just use drag and drop into the Catalog Explorer to label using the catalog tree, rather than adding more complexity to the LAP?
Yes... I can see that this sort of works. But you have to be using Catalog Labels for Import sessions, in order to display them as part of the total Catalog label tree. It can't be used (as far as I can see) if you want to view by Folder, and then drag and drop across to the Catalog Labels. That's because once you've navigated to the correct Folder, as soon as you switch back to the Labels tree, the context switches to the last view on the tree, and you lose the Folder view...
Note for gcoupe. If thumbnails are placed in the image basket you can return the explorer to catalogue labels and then re-enable the image basket. This actually works rather well.

Answer for Lou-Salkind. Because holding down a mouse button while moving the mouse produces a great deal of muscle tension and, repeated over a long session, tends to lead to injury. I know because I have been there. Drag and drop is sometimes very useful for quick fixes - "this image should have that label as well type situations" - but does not suit me for multiple label assignments to a succession of images.

The extra complexity would mostly be for Hert et al in developing it. Users not wanting to use the tree assignment panel would see just one simple extra screen element which they could easily ignore. It is much simpler than the "old" IDI assignment mode of the label explorer.
Jim (Photo Supreme: AMD Quad-Core A8-5500 Accelerated Processor 3.2 GHz; internal AMD Radeon™ HD7560D; 4GB DDR3 SDRAM; Win10x64)

freudenthaler
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Location: Austria

Re: Label Assignment Panel Requests

Post by freudenthaler » 04 Nov 12 10:56

Lou_Salkind wrote:Why not just use drag and drop into the Catalog Explorer to label using the catalog tree, rather than adding more complexity to the LAP?
Works also great for me, but I have to confess, that I do most of the labelling / keyword assigning already in my PIEware (Aftershot).

Nevertheless I like Jims idea of having the possibility to have the full label hierarchy available in the assignement panel. It seems natural to me, to provide not only drag & drop possibility from images to labels but also the other way round: dragging labels to the pics. And the hierarchical label tree is not only the most generic, but also always the most complete way of offering one's catalog labels. No label guesses like "suggested" needed, no user defined label sets needed, .., that's nice to have, but for me much to complicated to maintain.
Robert | glass stories | Fuji X | LR Classic CC | PSU 4 | Win 10/64 on AMD FX |

Mike Buckley
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Re: Label Assignment Panel Requests

Post by Mike Buckley » 04 Nov 12 14:24

Lou_Salkind wrote:Why not just use drag and drop into the Catalog Explorer to label using the catalog tree, rather than adding more complexity to the LAP?
I have given this considerable thought and don't understand how adding an option to the LAP is the same as adding complexity. So, I'll ask the question in reverse: Would removing the tree from the LAP in IDimager V5 make it less complex? Not for me.

My point is that there is nothing to be lost by adding the tree to Supreme's LAP, whereas a lot is lost by continuing to omit it.

andrew.heard
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Re: Label Assignment Panel Requests

Post by andrew.heard » 04 Nov 12 23:01

Another reason for having the full label hierarchy available, for me is performance - at present entering a label & having the list of matches appear takes between 3 and 10 seconds. When the list first appears it seems to be the full catalog and not just the matches, then a fraction of second later changes to just the matches. This time penalty occurs every time I enter a label which is tedious. I imagine having the full label hierarchy visible would often mean I can scroll up & down that list and find the label I'm looking for faster than having to wait the 3 and 10 seconds every time.

InTheFlow
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Re: Label Assignment Panel Requests

Post by InTheFlow » 05 Nov 12 7:54

So Hert, is the tree view something you will be adding to PS? If so, any idea of when it will be available?

Hert
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Re: Label Assignment Panel Requests

Post by Hert » 05 Nov 12 8:27

andrew.heard wrote:having the list of matches appear takes between 3 and 10 seconds. When the list first appears it seems to be the full catalog and not just the matches, then a fraction of second later changes to just the matches.
This was also reported by MikeP, earlier in this thread and is already fixed for the next update.

Hert
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Feature requests, change suggestions, or bugs can be logged in the ticketing system

Hert
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Re: Label Assignment Panel Requests

Post by Hert » 05 Nov 12 8:31

InTheFlow wrote:So Hert, is the tree view something you will be adding to PS? If so, any idea of when it will be available?
The next update gives access to the catalog hierarchy from within the LAP. The tabs suggestion will not be implemented. Release times, even estimates, are not communicated.
This is a User-to-User forum which means that users post questions here for other users.
Feature requests, change suggestions, or bugs can be logged in the ticketing system

chuckhebert40
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Re: Label Assignment Panel Requests

Post by chuckhebert40 » 23 Dec 12 12:32

:D :D More than any other piece of software, IDimager really made me exclaim "wow!" when I first came across it, in particular for the approach to hierarchical cataloguing and its adherence to standards making the addition of meaningful keywords to images a cinch. In my view IDI is something of a benchmark.

Functionally, Photo Supreme would appear to meet my main need (cataloguing, so I can find photos), but I find it rather perverse that one of the best features of IDimager has been omitted. (The facilities in PSU for finding photos seem admirable – the problem I, and obviously loads of others, have, is with assigning catalogue labels).

Like Jim I am an amateur. I have just returned from an extensive trip in Asia with thousands of pictures, involving lots of different places, and lots of different people. I typically deal with my photos sporadically, such as after a holiday. (I only found out about the demise of IDI when I went into the forum earlier this month to report a problem - only to find also that I’d already reported it in May!). Sporadic use (and a lousy memory) necessitates simplicity and little need for recall - I need everything in front of me.

As far as I can see, there are six (?) ways of assigning a catalogue label in PSU (if I've missed something, please put me right):

1. Type a label (or a synonym) in the box at the top of the Assign pane; select from the list that appears, or create a new label.
2. Click on the icon to the left of that data entry box to get a pull-down list, then work down the appropriate hierarchy to find the label you want.
3. Select from the list of recently used labels or favorites (I haven't yet sussed out how the Suggested and Nearby lists are populated).
4. Put the images into the basket, open the catalog pane, and drag images over the required label.
5. Use a short cut.
6. Use a label set

In my situation, where I tend to use a lot of different labels, invariably in hierarchies, and for a large variety of photos, the majority of these approaches are generally not convenient (although all have their uses, and I appreciate the wide choice). Most of the drawbacks have been highlighted by Jim and others, but a particular additional issue after my trip is dealing with a lot of strange names, often prone to a variety of spellings because they're transliterated, making the typing of labels very hit or miss. Methods 2 & 4 do permit the display of a hierarchy. However, method 2 involves a click per hierarchy level (as against one in IDI), and it only allows you to select the lowest level in the hierarchy (which I don’t always want).

This leaves the process of dragging photos in the basket to the category hierarchy. Dragging a selection of photos across to (say) five different labels one after the other is much more of a hassle, and more time-consuming, than clicking five boxes which are more or less in the same vertical line down the screen. If a scheme like that was available in PSU (whether like IDI’s or implemented differently) I’d be delighted, and would embrace PSU. As it is, I am inclined for the moment to stick with IDI– a superb product, even with the problem that particularly frustrates me. This is perhaps more the case after an exchange in Mantis….

In Mantis I have reported an issue (#1388) I've encountered in PSU that I have not encountered in IDI (to do with writing several label changes to the image file). I was given an explanation; it's not a bug, but a 'feature' (my word). In response, I suggested "it begs the question of why I don't seem to encounter the same problem in IDimager v5, and why a different tack has been taken in PSU."

The following exchange then ensued:

Administrator: "And that begs the question why you compare with IDimager. Apples are no lemons."

My response: "I find the remark about apples and lemons wide of the mark. Sure, PSU is not IDimager, but, given the demise of IDI, PSU is being offered as an alternative - and when it comes to cataloguing photos they're both designed to do the same job. So, why should I encounter an issue with the newer product which the older one didn't have?"

Administrator: "PSU is not offered as the alternative for IDimager. IDimager and PSU are as different as ACDsee or iMatch and PSU. They are completely different, even written in different development tools so you shouldn't expect anything. And PSU is definitely not the "newer" product for IDimager ...there is no newer IDimager."

That's left me a bit dumbfounded! Although disappointed at the withdrawal of support for IDI I have approached testing PSU as a replacement for meeting my cataloguing needs in a positive frame of mind. However, remarks like that suggest that PSU isn’t a replacement for IDI. If not, what is?
Charles Hebert

Hert
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Re: Label Assignment Panel Requests

Post by Hert » 23 Dec 12 13:01

However, method 2 involves a click per hierarchy level (as against one in IDI), and it only allows you to select the lowest level in the hierarchy (which I don’t always want).
You should be able to click the checkbox area to assign a parent leveled catalog label.

And your 1388 issue was already resolved in build 93 by the way...
However, remarks like that suggest that PSU isn’t a replacement for IDI. If not, what is?
If people ask me if PSU replaces IDimager then the answer is "no". If asked why things work different in PSU compared to IDimager then the answer is always: "because they are different products". If asked why a feature from IDimager is not in PSU then the answer is "because they are different products". If asked if PSU will eventually offer an identical feature set as IDimager does then the answer is "never say never, but don't count on it because the extensive feature set is what made IDimager as complex as it was". If people ask why IDimager development is discontinued then my return question is "think...why would a successful product be discontinued?".

If asked if PSU can replace IDimager to support their catalog needs then I say: it probably can.

Hert
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Feature requests, change suggestions, or bugs can be logged in the ticketing system

Paul Harris
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Re: Label Assignment Panel Requests

Post by Paul Harris » 23 Dec 12 16:08

Charles,

I am away and only have access to a tablet, so I can't refer to the nomenclature in PSU accurately, but I have found myself in similar situations to yours, ie., returning from a trip with a lot of new photos, possibly requiring new labels. As I create the new labels, there is an option to include the label in a custom group that will appear in the label assignment panel. Then, most of the labels I will need in my workflow will be readily available in one place. Once I am done with this group of photos I can destroy, or perhaps hide, that group.

Paul

chuckhebert40
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Re: Label Assignment Panel Requests

Post by chuckhebert40 » 24 Dec 12 17:28

You should be able to click the checkbox area to assign a parent leveled catalog label.
Thanks, Hert, I hadn't spotted the checkbox; need to explore further....
And your 1388 issue was already resolved in build 93 by the way...
Thanks for this too (better than the response I got in Mantis!). Your prompt responses are appreciated (and I see .93 has become .94.... - it's Christmas, so maybe you could afford a short break!)

I do understand that PSU is different from IDimager, and hence doesn't replace it. I can also fully understand why you have concluded that maintaining such a richly-featured (and therefore complex) product as IDimager is no longer sensible/possible. Having said that, it does seem reasonable to think that, when it comes to cataloguing, PSU can be a replacement for IDI. I'm glad you say "it probably can". I'm sure it can - the issue is, how well (for my way of working).

I just regret the lack of availability in PSU of the way of assigning labels that is available in IDI v5, a lack clearly felt by several other people.

Thanks, Paul, for your suggestion about using label sets. An example of where this doesn’t address my concern (ease of use) would be where I want to assign labels to a lot of pictures in respect of several people I've encountered and/or been with on holiday. If I set these up as a label set I can indeed find every person in the LAP, but when I assign the first one the list disappears, and I have to go back through the selection process for each `person to be assigned. In contrast, With the IDI facility I can select each person (and each other category I want) with a single click, and all the while have the category hierarchies in front of me. As well as simplifying the process, being able to see everything helps me to register the various different categories I might think are appropriate for a photo or group of photos.

I don't wish to over-critical. There are lots of good things in PSU that I like, but it's just that the feature I most appreciate (and use much the most often) in IDI isn't there in PSU. I will, nevertheless, continue to explore Photo Supreme (but not over Christmas).
Charles Hebert

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