custom order of thumbnails in a portfolio

Mike Buckley
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Joined: 10 Jul 08 14:18

Re: custom order of thumbnails in a portfolio

Post by Mike Buckley » 06 Aug 13 0:52

Can multiple thumbnails be selected at the same time and then moved using the keyboard function to a particular function?

tstoddard
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Joined: 07 Sep 12 12:51

Re: custom order of thumbnails in a portfolio

Post by tstoddard » 06 Aug 13 1:29

From the experimenting I've done, it seems that you can only move items when only one is selected. Selecting multiple items and using Ctl + arrows does nothing on my machine.
Tom Stoddard

stevehughes
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Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: custom order of thumbnails in a portfolio

Post by stevehughes » 08 Aug 13 7:56

I'm OK with the idea of using Ctrl-arrows to move an image around. At least it always ends up where I expect, whereas in IDI it would not always land where it was dropped.

From playing today with .145 I wonder whether the switch into 'No Sort' mode (which as Hert says is really 'Manual Sort' mode) can be made nicer. What I mean is: if the images are originally in, say, date order, when you try to move the first photo PSU will prompt to switch into 'no sort', at which time all the photos jump to apparently random (from the user's perspective) positions. This could transition the user from having most of the pictures in sensible positions (with maybe just a few to be moved) to having all the pictures in a bizarre mish-mash and having to start totally from scratch in re-ordering them.

Maybe what's needed is the option to copy the existing sort to the 'no sort' view as a starting point.

Steve.

Hert
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Re: custom order of thumbnails in a portfolio

Post by Hert » 08 Aug 13 14:17

Thank you Steve. That makes sense.
Hert
This is a User-to-User forum which means that users post questions here for other users.
Feature requests, change suggestions, or bugs can be logged in the ticketing system

tstoddard
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Re: custom order of thumbnails in a portfolio

Post by tstoddard » 08 Aug 13 14:58

+1 That's a great idea. How to implement it is the question. One way I can think of would be to prompt the user asking if they want to overwrite the saved custom sort order with the current sort order each time they switch from any "sort by" other than "No sorting" to "No sorting". I don't think that would be too much of a hassle to the user. There should be a clear warning, however, when the user chooses to do this that they will lose any previously saved custom sort order.
Tom Stoddard

stevehughes
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Re: custom order of thumbnails in a portfolio

Post by stevehughes » 09 Aug 13 0:07

Yeah that's roughly what I was thinking Tom. But it could go a bit smarter. What if...

- No Sort is renamed to Manual Sort. Gives a much better idea to the user of what's happening.
- The first time Manual Sort is entered for a particular collection your question gets asked. But only the first time. Otherwise sooner or later the user will unthinkably hit the wrong button and lose his ordering.
- There could also be a manual option to reload the manual sort order from the current sort on demand.
- Any new images added to the collection after initializing the manual sort order would be given a manual sort order of '0' so they appear at the top where they can be easily found.

This would be more robust than IDI's implementation. With IDI you could drag stuff around into a manual order, but if you later changed back to another sort method you would lose the manual sort.

Question ... manual sort has only ever been an option for portfolio collections, not for catalog labels. I've never understood why this distinction exists. Is there any reason why 'Manual Sort' wouldn't be a good thing to offer in catalog labels as well ?

Steve.

Mike Buckley
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Re: custom order of thumbnails in a portfolio

Post by Mike Buckley » 09 Aug 13 11:50

For what it's worth, if the thumbnails are being displayed, the term, "No Sort," is an inaccurate description of the sort criterion. That's because the thumbnails are always sorted even if the sort order is randomly generated. Lightroom does not use the term, "No Sort," presumably for that reason. Instead, it always displays the sort criterion being used at the time.

It also doesn't use the term, "Manual Sort." Instead, it uses "User Order." I prefer the use of "Manual Sort" because all sort criteria are chosen by the user.

jstartin
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Location: UK

Re: custom order of thumbnails in a portfolio

Post by jstartin » 09 Aug 13 15:09

Mike Buckley wrote:For what it's worth, if the thumbnails are being displayed, the term, "No Sort," is an inaccurate description of the sort criterion. That's because the thumbnails are always sorted even if the sort order is randomly generated.
Mike
Also for what it's worth, I don't necessarily agree. I assume that before any manual adjustments are made "No Sort" displays files in the order in which they are spat out by the database (which is, I assume, the order in which they have, for the time being, ended up in the database). By my definitions there is no sorting. However, it does seems to me that "Sort by No sorting" is a poor form of words. Certainly manual ordering IS sorted in a way and shouldn't be called "No sort". (Assuming that the UI should be in natural English and not computer jargon.)
Jim (Photo Supreme: AMD Quad-Core A8-5500 Accelerated Processor 3.2 GHz; internal AMD Radeon™ HD7560D; 4GB DDR3 SDRAM; Win10x64)

Mike Buckley
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Re: custom order of thumbnails in a portfolio

Post by Mike Buckley » 10 Aug 13 4:00

jstartin wrote:I assume that before any manual adjustments are made "No Sort" displays files in the order in which they are spat out by the database
Even by your assumption, a sort criterion exists. Therefore, to say that there is "No sort" is a contradiction of your own definition.

jstartin
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Re: custom order of thumbnails in a portfolio

Post by jstartin » 10 Aug 13 21:24

Mike Buckley wrote:
jstartin wrote:I assume that before any manual adjustments are made "No Sort" displays files in the order in which they are spat out by the database
Even by your assumption, a sort criterion exists. Therefore, to say that there is "No sort" is a contradiction of your own definition.
I wonder if we have a linguistic difference here.
Sort (verb): Arrange or order by classes or categories; to put in a certain place or rank according to kind, class, or nature.
If no purposeful action has been taken to arrange items according to some property then they have not been sorted.
Jim (Photo Supreme: AMD Quad-Core A8-5500 Accelerated Processor 3.2 GHz; internal AMD Radeon™ HD7560D; 4GB DDR3 SDRAM; Win10x64)

Mike Buckley
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Re: custom order of thumbnails in a portfolio

Post by Mike Buckley » 10 Aug 13 21:58

It could be just a matter of semantics, Jim. I'm assuming that a purposeful action has taken place, if not by me then by the developer that caused the sorting to be what it is before I make any changes.

David Grundy
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Location: Hong Kong

Re: custom order of thumbnails in a portfolio

Post by David Grundy » 11 Aug 13 7:56

Moving or Versioning ... do we really have to choose? Perhaps we could have both; it just depends whether you drop the thumbnail ON TOP OF another thumbnail or BETWEEN other thumbnails.

The display can show what is about to happen. It would change from the versioning display to the manual sorting display as the thumbnail is dragged to a versioning location or a moving location on the screen.

Perhaps like this:
Select an image (or multiple images)
Selecting.jpg
Selecting.jpg (32.18 KiB) Viewed 3084 times
Then click on the image and drag it on top of another thumbnail to add as a version.
The blue box shows that we're about to do some versioning.
Versioning.jpg
Versioning.jpg (31.98 KiB) Viewed 3084 times
If you like there could also be a text overlay to remind the user what is about to happen:
Versioning with text.jpg
Versioning with text.jpg (32.41 KiB) Viewed 3084 times
Or drop it between two other thumbnails to manually sort.
The orange highlight shows where it will be moved to.
Moving.jpg
Moving.jpg (31.98 KiB) Viewed 3084 times
Again, if you like there could also be a text overlay:
Moving with text.jpg
Moving with text.jpg (38.55 KiB) Viewed 3084 times
... David

David Grundy
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Location: Hong Kong

Re: custom order of thumbnails in a portfolio

Post by David Grundy » 11 Aug 13 8:29

In addition to my suggestion for moving & versioning in the previous post ...
stevehughes wrote:What if...

- No Sort is renamed to Manual Sort. Gives a much better idea to the user of what's happening.
- The first time Manual Sort is entered for a particular collection your question gets asked. But only the first time. Otherwise sooner or later the user will unthinkably hit the wrong button and lose his ordering.
- There could also be a manual option to reload the manual sort order from the current sort on demand.
- Any new images added to the collection after initializing the manual sort order would be given a manual sort order of '0' so they appear at the top where they can be easily found.
To buy into the philosophical argument, it seems to me that:
  • From a system perspective "no sort" presumably means "display the list in the order in which items were added to the current list".
  • From a user perspective, there is always a sort order, whether or not we understand why it is what it is.
From a more practical viewpoint I think Steve has it nearly right.

What if:
  1. No Sort is renamed to Manual Sort (which I agree will probably make more sense to a user, regardless of any philosophical debate).
  2. If the user switches to "Manual Sort", then the previous manual sort order is retained and the images reorder in the CV accordingly. Any images which don't have a sort order attached to them (because they are new to this collection since last time a manual sort was done) get grouped either at the beginning or at the end. (I prefer the end but I really don't mind as long as it's consistent.)
  3. If a user is in some other sort view (ie anything except Manual Sort), AND there is already a manual sort defined, AND the user tries to move a thumbnail, THEN (and only then!) the question gets asked, "This action will delete the previous Manual Sort order for this collection. Continue? Yes/No". If the user says yes, then a new manual sort order is created to agree with whatever order is currently shown in the CV. In that case, the previous manual sort order is forgotten.
... David

David Grundy
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Location: Hong Kong

Re: custom order of thumbnails in a portfolio

Post by David Grundy » 11 Aug 13 14:45

On reflection I think I wasn't clear. Try again:

There are two ways to switch to Manual Sort Mode:
  • by specifically invoking Manual Sort Mode through the view menu, or
  • by moving a thumbnail when PSu is in another Sort Mode.
A. If the user specifically switches to Manual Sort Mode, then the images reorder in the CV according to the most recent manual sort for that collection. Any images which don't have a manual sort order attached to them (because they are new to this collection since last time a manual sort was done) get grouped either at the beginning or at the end, in the same order they were in before the switch to Manual Sort Mode. (I prefer the end but I really don't mind as long as it's consistent.)

Special cases:
  • If there is no existing manual sort order defined (because this collection has never been sorted manually), then the initial order for the manual sort is the same as what was in the CV before switching to Manual Sort Mode.
    (This is actually completely consistent with the main case, so does not need to be treated as a special case.)
  • If PSu is already in Manual Sort Mode, and the user loads a collection which has never been manually sorted, then the starting point for the manual sort order in this case would be whatever other sort order has most recently been selected for this kind of collection.
Also I'd suggest that changing into manual sort mode doesn't yet define a manual sort order. It's only if the user actually re-orders some thumbnails that a manual sort order is defined. (Otherwise there's no need to define the manual sort order as it's the same as previous sort mode.)

B. If the user tries to move a thumbnail when PSu is NOT already in manual sort mode, then two cases ...

Case B1: There is no previous manual sort order defined for that collection.
In that case
  1. the manual sort order is defined to be what was showing in the CV before the move,
  2. the Sort Mode changes to Manual, and then
  3. the thumbnail is moved as the user specified.
Case B2: There is already a manual sort order defined previously for that collection (from a previous manual sorting session).
In that case (and only in that case!) the question gets asked,
"This action will delete the previous Manual Sort order for this collection. Continue? Yes/No".
  • If the user says yes, then the same things happens as in Case B1. And, the previous manual sort order is forgotten.
  • If the user says no, then nothing happens.
Note: To make this work, of course PSu must remember the manual sort order even when some other sort order is selected afterwards.

... David

Hert
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Re: custom order of thumbnails in a portfolio

Post by Hert » 12 Aug 13 17:23

The next update, build 146, will allow the ordering of series of selected thumbnails.
This is a User-to-User forum which means that users post questions here for other users.
Feature requests, change suggestions, or bugs can be logged in the ticketing system

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