OS Folder Operations in 1.0.8.67

stefanknoll
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OS Folder Operations in 1.0.8.67

Post by stefanknoll » 26 Oct 12 18:18

According to Hert's latest announcement, Build 1.0.8.67 should provide the capability to create, delete or move folders on operating system level.
After having done some tests, I found out that:
  • Folder creation works fine, however the tree structure does not get refreshed automatically. After having created a new subfolder, you have to select a different catalog view (e. g. 'By Rating') and then switch back to 'By Folder')
  • All the other operations don't work at all. Every time I try to delete, move or copy a folder, I get a message from the operating system (in my case this is Win Vista SP2), telling me that the source folder cannot be found (it's easy to recognize that this message comes from Windows, as the message is in German language).
For my own workflow it's an absolute MUST to be able to perform these file system operations from inside the application. So I really appreciate the effort that has been taken to integrate that functionality into Photo Supreme. Given these operations will work properly with one of the next updates and given that some of the scripts of ID5 also work with it (which I haven't tried yet), I think that I will PS give a try (however I really liked the functionality to add a frame to my fotos only for the Flickr upload, but that's a different issue...).

Kind regards
Stefan

tstoddard
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Re: OS Folder Operations in 1.0.8.67

Post by tstoddard » 26 Oct 12 20:10

I was experimenting with some of these operations last night and found them to be confusing and not useful. What I was trying to do was to relocate a folder from one directory into another. I did receive the error message at one time that the source folder could not be found but I continued and the message did not appear again.

I forget what exactly happened but it was very confusing and I thought the I might have caused some problems for myself. I eventually recovered and then used Windows Explorer to move the folder that I wanted to move. After doing that, I used the relocate folder option in PSU to get the catalog to point at the correct folder.

I do recall that when I used the relocate folder option to try to physically move a folder from one directory into another, the original directory disappeared from the folder tree in Photo Supreme and its contents showed up in the destination folder in Photo Supreme. The original folder did not get moved, it simply disappeared and the contents got moved. Back in Windows, nothing had changed. Perhaps this behavior was by design but I found it confusing and disconcerting.

Also, nothing was marked out of sync after the relocation. I assume that this meant that my database thought that my files were in a directory that they were not in. It seems to me that this would result in the database being out of sync and not knowing it.

If there is a good explanation for this, I'd love to hear it.
Tom Stoddard

jstartin
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Re: OS Folder Operations in 1.0.8.67

Post by jstartin » 26 Oct 12 21:25

The new folder operations do seem to be broken, but will be very useful once fixed. There are already reports on the Mantis bug tracking system.
tstoddard wrote: I do recall that when I used the relocate folder option to try to physically move a folder from one directory into another, the original directory disappeared from the folder tree in Photo Supreme and its contents showed up in the destination folder in Photo Supreme. The original folder did not get moved, it simply disappeared and the contents got moved. Back in Windows, nothing had changed. Perhaps this behavior was by design but I found it confusing and disconcerting.
....
I agree that "Relocate" is not clear until its real meaning is learned. What it is actually for, to the best of my knowledge, is to tell PSu that a folder has been renamed or moved by some method outside of PSu. It is covered in the PSu help file, but only under "Migrating to a New Computer" (which is not somewhere I would normally look if that is not what I want to do).
Jim (Photo Supreme: AMD Quad-Core A8-5500 Accelerated Processor 3.2 GHz; internal AMD Radeon™ HD7560D; 4GB DDR3 SDRAM; Win10x64)

tstoddard
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Re: OS Folder Operations in 1.0.8.67

Post by tstoddard » 26 Oct 12 22:13

Thanks for clarifying that, Jim. I guess I figured that out by accident. I realized after I did it what it was supposed to be used for. The problem is, it allowed me to make changes in my catalog database that lead to the database being out of sync, or just plain incorrect. If I hadn't investigated and I went ahead and relocated a bunch of folders, it could have been pretty tricky to figure out just what I had done.

I see the value of having this functionality in Photo Supreme but I think it should check to see if the contents of the folder being relocated actually exist in the destination folder before relocating it. In other words, don't change the path of a file in the database unless the new path can be verified. Perhaps the word relocate should be changed to locate so that user will realize that its purpose is to point the database to the correct physical location of the folder's contents not to move the folder. If I choose the wrong destination folder inadvertently, I would prefer for the relocate operation to fail rather than to have incorrect information inserted into my catalog database. Perhaps a simple message stating that "some content could not be located in the destination folder so it was not relocated" would be possible.
Tom Stoddard

jstartin
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Re: OS Folder Operations in 1.0.8.67

Post by jstartin » 26 Oct 12 22:51

Tom
Perhaps "Relocate Folder" should bring up an "Are you sure" box that explains exactly what is going to happen if the user proceeds. Well, that and some better documentation for those inclined to read it!

Hert: In normal use relocate=move, and users who have not learned the jargon through IDI are very likely to misunderstand and make mistakes.

EDIT: Would "Find relocated folder... be a clearer menu item?
Jim (Photo Supreme: AMD Quad-Core A8-5500 Accelerated Processor 3.2 GHz; internal AMD Radeon™ HD7560D; 4GB DDR3 SDRAM; Win10x64)

Hert
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Re: OS Folder Operations in 1.0.8.67

Post by Hert » 28 Oct 12 11:03

Or maybe Relocate could be renamed to Remap?
This is a User-to-User forum which means that users post questions here for other users.
Feature requests, change suggestions, or bugs can be logged in the ticketing system

jstartin
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Re: OS Folder Operations in 1.0.8.67

Post by jstartin » 28 Oct 12 12:18

Hert/IDimager wrote:Or maybe Relocate could be renamed to Remap?
Seems perfect.
Jim (Photo Supreme: AMD Quad-Core A8-5500 Accelerated Processor 3.2 GHz; internal AMD Radeon™ HD7560D; 4GB DDR3 SDRAM; Win10x64)

Mike Buckley
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Re: OS Folder Operations in 1.0.8.67

Post by Mike Buckley » 28 Oct 12 14:38

Though "remap" is an accurate term and is an improvement over "relocate," it doesn't fully convey what is being done or why it needs to be done. This becomes confusing for the new user. The new user asks, "What does it mean to remap a folder?" or "Why would the folder need to be remapped?" I actually wonder if it's impossible to convey what is being done using only one verb. So, my vote goes to using a tool tip to fully explain to "Use this when the database has lost track of the physical location of the folder."

For the menu item itself, my vote goes to "Correct the folder's location" until someone comes up with something better. If there is insufficient room for that phrase, perhaps use "Correct the location."

My reasoning is that the verb, "correct," strongly indicates that something is wrong and needs to be changed. Neither "remap" nor "relocate" strongly indicate that something is wrong, at least not for me.

jstartin
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Re: OS Folder Operations in 1.0.8.67

Post by jstartin » 28 Oct 12 15:34

Mike
You have a point, but I don't think "Correct the folder's location" is better. What is happening here is that a "catalog folder" is being changed/corrected to point to a different physical folder. For new users, especially the less "technical" that I think Hert is trying to attract, some obscurity might be better than any ambiguity (if that makes sense) - as long as an explanation can be easily found in "help".

"Remap to disk (folder)" ???

It has just dawned on me that elsewhere in PSu "Relocate this label" really does move the label to a different place in the hierarchy. Even worse than ambiguity or obscurity, is inconsistency.
Jim (Photo Supreme: AMD Quad-Core A8-5500 Accelerated Processor 3.2 GHz; internal AMD Radeon™ HD7560D; 4GB DDR3 SDRAM; Win10x64)

Mike Buckley
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Re: OS Folder Operations in 1.0.8.67

Post by Mike Buckley » 28 Oct 12 18:26

Jim,

I'll provide a bit of an explanation with apologies in advance for a long post.
jstartin wrote:For new users, especially the less "technical" that I think Hert is trying to attract
It might help you and others to understand that I'm one of the less technically oriented people that Hert is trying to attract. Despite that I wrote the IDimager Version 5 Workbook, I have never been a power user when meeting my own cataloging needs. I never used any of the scripts stored in the repository. I never mapped catalog labels. I never displayed custom information on my thumbnails. I still know absolutely nothing about how databases are made to work. You get the idea.

I distinctly remember when I first came across the issue of having to "relocate" a folder in V5 because it was very confusing to me. I had no idea what was going on. Dirk Schiphorst had to explain to me what "relocating" meant in the context of using the software. In fact, when I made my Workbook available, I felt that if prospective buyers could see that it clearly and easily explained what "relocating" a folder was all about, they would surely come to believe that it could explain anything else about how to use IDImager. So, that part of the Workbook is the part that I made available to everyone for free.
some obscurity might be better than any ambiguity (if that makes sense)
Based on the struggles that I had while learning how to use IDimager, I have to disagree. Moreover, I believe it's entirely reasonable to believe that all obscurity and ambiguity can be eliminated. So, I see no reason to accept the compromise that one of them might be better than the other one.
as long as an explanation can be easily found in "help".
The understandable problem with all DAM software is that it is necessarily so complex that an effective Help section becomes so large that it will never be easy to find an explanation of everything. As an example, the IDimager manual is about 500 pages and the Help screens are the same as the pages of the manual. Yet when I conduct a search of "relocate" in the V5 Help section, despite that seven screens are returned, not one of them explains how to relocate a folder.

One reason I have refrained from trying out Supreme until it becomes further developed is that it becomes immediately clear after a review of its Help section that much information is not explained there. I hope that section will be greatly expanded. I'm doubtful, though, because the Help section explicitly says that Tips displayed within Supreme are "your primary resource for getting help," not the Help screens themselves. Indeed, there is no way that I have found to conduct a search of Supreme's Help screens. The only explanation that I have found of relocating catalog folders in Supreme is provided only in the context of migrating to a new computer. Even that explanation is located within the section about maintaining the catalog, which is illogical to me because moving a catalog to another computer isn't a maintenance function, just as moving a suitcase full of clothes from one car to another has nothing to do with maintaining it.
Even worse than ambiguity or obscurity, is inconsistency.
Absolutely! Having said that, I am very sympathetic that lacking the use of professional translators who are probably prohibitively expensive, it is going to be exceptionally difficult to use all terms accurately and consistently in the various languages that Supreme is produced in. Add to that that many users will select a language that is not their native language. Even when the terms are used accurately and consistently, those users will understandably get confused by their own misunderstanding about what a certain term really means.

This whole issue of the use of terminology and documentation reminds me of when I first took a look at DigitalPro before learning about IDimager. I learned very early on that Its documentation inaccurately explained how to conduct a search of images containing two keywords; the search that was was explained returned all images containing either of the two keywords, not both of them. I immediately stopped considering DigitalPro and have never reviewed it since then. That's because I felt that if their documentation that explained something so simple and so important was completely inaccurate, I could only imagine how difficult it would be to wade through the explanations of the more esoteric aspects of using the software. I was a first-time DAM user, so this issue was very important to me. I'd hate for first-time DAM users to have a similar experience and to react to Supreme as I did to DigitalPro.
Last edited by Mike Buckley on 29 Oct 12 7:13, edited 2 times in total.

Mike Buckley
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Re: OS Folder Operations in 1.0.8.67

Post by Mike Buckley » 28 Oct 12 19:07

jstartin wrote:"Remap to disk (folder)" ???
After giving this more thought, I have come up with the following: "Map to correct physical folder." (The distinction between mapping and remapping is unimportant.)

Lars
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Re: OS Folder Operations in 1.0.8.67

Post by Lars » 29 Oct 12 4:04

Mike Buckley wrote: "Map to correct physical folder."
+1
W7/64bit, IDimager V5 ProSL

Lou_Salkind
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Re: OS Folder Operations in 1.0.8.67

Post by Lou_Salkind » 29 Oct 12 4:26

I like it. Or "Map to new physical folder"

Hert
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Re: OS Folder Operations in 1.0.8.67

Post by Hert » 29 Oct 12 6:27

Lou_Salkind wrote:I like it. Or "Map to new physical folder"
I think that Mike's suggestion "Map to Correct Physical Folder" covers this better because it's not typically mapped to a "new" folder but an existing folder.

Hert
This is a User-to-User forum which means that users post questions here for other users.
Feature requests, change suggestions, or bugs can be logged in the ticketing system

InTheFlow
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Re: OS Folder Operations in 1.0.8.67

Post by InTheFlow » 29 Oct 12 6:48

Lars wrote:
Mike Buckley wrote: "Map to correct physical folder."
+1
Hert/IDimager wrote:
Lou_Salkind wrote:I like it. Or "Map to new physical folder"
I think that Mike's suggestion "Map to Correct Physical Folder" covers this better because it's not typically mapped to a "new" folder but an existing folder.Hert
+1

Edit: @ Mike...great post and you did an excellent job on the workbook!

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