Is the Label Assignment Panel alone sufficient?

jstartin
Posts: 439
Joined: 23 Aug 06 13:47
Location: UK

Is the Label Assignment Panel alone sufficient?

Post by jstartin » 17 Oct 12 22:51

I'm hoping to provoke some discussion in the forum and get some comments from others before I venture to turn my personal "desires" into a Mantis feature request ticket; I don't expect Hert et al to change anything to suit the convenience and preference of any single user.

I have used IDI for quite a few years, but didn't upgrade beyond v4 personal, which seemed to do enough to suit me. I am used to using the Catalog Explorer in assign mode and the Quick Assign feature invoked from the top right thumb icon. The LAP (Label Assignment Panel) is new to me, but in PSU is the only tool available.

The problems I have with the LAP are mainly:

If I type a category name into the text box nothing is shown; it seems it only deals with labels. If I know (or just think) I already have an appropriate label somewhere in the Events hierarchy but can't remember exactly what I called it I have no starting point. I'm probably in By Folder view of the catalog so have to go to the other side of the screen, change the By... setting, look at what is there, change back to By Folder, see that the Thumb I want to label has lost the selection focus, find it again, and only then am I ready to start typing something to get a list containing the appropriate label.

I am better at interpreting indented trees than lists of delimited words. This leads to some slowness and even inaccuracy when I have, for example, (Camera)Location::Valley and Subject::Mountain top as well as (Camera)Location:Mountain top and Subject::Valley.

After getting started on a set of photographs most of the labels I need will be in the Recently Used section, but without hovering the mouse over each one the hierarchy is not apparent - |Valley|Valley|Mountain top|Mountain top| - and as I use them they move around so I have to keep rechecking which is which. I could expand the labels themselves to indicate where they are in the hierarchy, but this should not be necessary, and if I move a sub-label to a different node.....

Have IDI5 users, who have had the LAP for much longer, alongside the other labeling methods, used the LAP mostly or exclusively? If so, how?

Finally, switching the Catalog Explorer to label assignment has risks too, and I have always done so with a bit of nervousness (in case I forget to switch back and assign a label that I meant to simply view) and I don't think this feature is appropriate for PSU. Any ideas for alternatives?

Edit: Finally-finally, I should have said that, apart from a few minor issues, when once everything is labeled and versioned properly PSU is a joy to behold and a pleasure to use!
Jim (Photo Supreme: AMD Quad-Core A8-5500 Accelerated Processor 3.2 GHz; internal AMD Radeon™ HD7560D; 4GB DDR3 SDRAM; Win10x64)

tstoddard
Posts: 584
Joined: 07 Sep 12 12:51

Re: Is the Label Assignment Panel alone sufficient?

Post by tstoddard » 18 Oct 12 0:55

I agree that there are some shortcomings to the label assignment panel and I would welcome alternative methods for assigning labels. I have also found myself having to navigate out of a By Folder view into the By Category view in the Explorer panel in order to look at or for certain labels. Then when navigating back the image that was previously selected is no longer selected. I attempted to use the history back keyboard shortcut, hoping that the selected image would be saved in the history cache but it isn't.

I also find myself inadvertently assigning incorrect labels far too often because I get ahead of the LAB and it resizes itself just as I click on my next label assignment. This causes me to have to slow down and click one label, wait until the label assignment shows up in the top box and then click on the next label and so on. Perhaps the default size of the top box (where the assigned labels are displayed) could be set to at least display two or three rows. I hate to suggest taking up valuable screen real estate with an empty container but I don't see much of an alternative. There seems to be a lot of wasted space below the main window next to the image basket. Could that space be used to displayed assigned labels or does it get used for other purposes that I'm not aware of?

Yet one more option would be to enable a way to hide the explorer panel so that I can make the LAB wide enough so that it isn't resizing as frequently.

Optimally, I would prefer to be able to use the label tree to do assignments. Either from the explorer panel or by enabling a view of the label tree in the LAB. The former would be preferable because then you would have both methods available at all times and not have to change views to move from one to the other.

It seems like an awful waste to support hierarchical keywording but force users to assign labels by using flat label sets or by typing label names and selecting a choice from a drop down.

Obviously, I'm agreeing with jstartin's suggestion for a feature request, I just don't know exactly how I would define the feature. I agree that PSU is a pleasure to use for the most part but right now I'm spending most of my time assigning labels so these issues are front and center.

I should add that I occasionally have to close the LAB altogether and go back to it to get all the labels in the various label sets to display properly. I have one large label set that I use often and there are times when most of the labels just disappear. The container maintains its size but is mostly empty. It's only happened a few times and I can't reproduce it so I haven't reported it as a bug.
Tom Stoddard

Lars
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Re: Is the Label Assignment Panel alone sufficient?

Post by Lars » 18 Oct 12 1:35

jstartin wrote:I have used IDI for quite a few years, but didn't upgrade beyond v4 personal, which seemed to do enough to suit me. I am used to using the Catalog Explorer in assign mode and the Quick Assign feature invoked from the top right thumb icon.
I started in V5 in that way, but soon I changed to the label assignment panel and have cataloged about 15000 images with the LAP. In PSU i would do the same.

The LAP (Label Assignment Panel) is new to me, but in PSU is the only tool available.
In PSU It is also possible to drag a thumbnail over an item in the catalog tree to assign that label.
The problems I have with the LAP are mainly:

If I type a category name into the text box nothing is shown; it seems it only deals with labels. If I know (or just think) I already have an appropriate label somewhere in the Events hierarchy but can't remember exactly what I called it I have no starting point. I'm probably in By Folder view of the catalog so have to go to the other side of the screen, change the By... setting, look at what is there, change back to By Folder, see that the Thumb I want to label has lost the selection focus, find it again, and only then am I ready to start typing something to get a list containing the appropriate label.

I am better at interpreting indented trees than lists of delimited words. This leads to some slowness and even inaccuracy when I have, for example, (Camera)Location::Valley and Subject::Mountain top as well as (Camera)Location:Mountain top and Subject::Valley.

After getting started on a set of photographs most of the labels I need will be in the Recently Used section, but without hovering the mouse over each one the hierarchy is not apparent - |Valley|Valley|Mountain top|Mountain top| - and as I use them they move around so I have to keep rechecking which is which. I could expand the labels themselves to indicate where they are in the hierarchy, but this should not be necessary, and if I move a sub-label to a different node.....

Have IDI5 users, who have had the LAP for much longer, alongside the other labeling methods, used the LAP mostly or exclusively? If so, how?
I would do the same as I often do in V5: Open a second instance of the programme so i freely can jump around the tree without loosing focus in the first instance. At the moment it's not possible to drag a thumbnail from one instance to the other, but promised to be possible asap. So for now I will find the label in the second instance and then tap in the found label name in the label assignment panel in the first instance - Sound tedious, but usually you only have to tap a few characters to find the right one in the dropdown list.
Finally, switching the Catalog Explorer to label assignment has risks too, and I have always done so with a bit of nervousness (in case I forget to switch back and assign a label that I meant to simply view) and I don't think this feature is appropriate for PSU. Any ideas for alternatives?
I see the risk and occasional I have made that kind of faults, but I did also made faults when i used the tree because i accidentally checked the wrong box or dropped the wrong label.
Any ideas for alternatives?
Again: In PSU It is also possible to drag a thumbnail over an item in the catalog tree to assign that label.

A work around to the present lack of drag/drop between instances could be to use the image basket, because it is shared among instances.
W7/64bit, IDimager V5 ProSL

mphillips
Posts: 1429
Joined: 31 May 07 12:02
Location: Parkwood,Johannesburg,South Africa

Re: Is the Label Assignment Panel alone sufficient?

Post by mphillips » 18 Oct 12 10:43

Hi
I already have an appropriate label somewhere in the Events hierarchy
I have "endlessly" lobbied Hert to allow a catalog label tree 'browser' in the LAP - Like in V5 - so that I can find the label in the Tree without having to flip between catalog folder - catalog labels - catalog folder - catalog labels..... I also often find myself unsure if I have a existing label already - or must I create a new one. And If I create a new one I want to match the existing pattern - so to be able to look and browse up and down the catalog label tree is vital.
I just don't know exactly how I would define the feature
- Just like in V5 - but Supremely Better :-)
18-10-2012 11-23-21 AM.jpg
18-10-2012 11-23-21 AM.jpg (26.59 KiB) Viewed 5625 times
Typing in the name to search for a label is laborious as it seems to list all sorts of options before it finally shortens the list to just the few I want to see. And its really really Slow to start.

I really miss the "Copy Label Assignments from this image to that Image via the clipboard" (Ctrl- Shift C) feature - its just cumbersome at the moment to click on the Source and destination thumbs - see the brown labels - click each label to go Green - label by label - it was must faster in V5.

I loved the ability to create a hierarchy of catalog labels "on the fly" - eg typing Events::Birthdays::2012::My Birthday to create the My Birthday event - rather than scrolling up and down the tree (that is initially displayed so small) - but I fully understand that that may be a 1 user request !
hide the explorer panel
- Ctrl - M works quite well for this use - even though it doesn't just drop the Left Tree Panel but other screen elements too.

Regards

MikeP
Mike Phillips
http://www.mikeandmorag.co.za
D800, CNX2, Supreme

gcoupe
Posts: 461
Joined: 16 Mar 05 19:29
Location: Heelweg, The Netherlands

Re: Is the Label Assignment Panel alone sufficient?

Post by gcoupe » 18 Oct 12 11:25

I must admit that I found the LAP in V5 to be sufficient for my needs. I stopped using the Catalog Explorer in Assignment mode very quickly once the LAP became available.

When tagging, if the Label I wanted wasn't listed in the Recently Used set, then typing in a portion of the term was enough to throw up a drop-down list of possibilities very quickly, even though I'm using hierarchical labels with up to nine levels. I do agree that PSU is much more sluggish at coming up with the same possibilities, and it first throws up a list of seemingly unrelated terms.
jstartin wrote:If I type a category name into the text box nothing is shown; it seems it only deals with labels. If I know (or just think) I already have an appropriate label somewhere in the Events hierarchy but can't remember exactly what I called it I have no starting point.
Erm, you don't need "a starting point", if by that you mean the start of the hierarchy. I can type in "belg" into the PSU Label search box and get two hits:
Nature/Animals/mammals/livestock/horses/draft horses/Belgian
Places/Europe/Belgium

If I have two labels in the Recently Used list in the LAP that have the same value, then I use the mouse to hover over them to confirm the context.

I can see the point that MikeP makes about the Catalog Browser in the LAP in V5. I occasionally used it, and as he says, it avoids having to switch contexts and got to the Catalog Explorer view to hunt for a suitable label. So, I'd vote for having the feature of a Catalog Browser in the LAP of PSU if it's possible. Some way of being able to browse for a Label without switching context away from the task of assigning labels would be useful.
Geoff Coupe
--------------
Photo Supreme /Windows 10 Pro 64 bits + Windows Home Server 2011 = DAM

tstoddard
Posts: 584
Joined: 07 Sep 12 12:51

Re: Is the Label Assignment Panel alone sufficient?

Post by tstoddard » 18 Oct 12 12:31

MikeP, thanks for the Ctrl + M tip. I think I might find that very useful. I hadn't realized that there was a "Maximized Mode" or what it did.

EDIT: Some statements in the following paragraph are incorrect. See Hert's post later in this thread. I am mistaken about the Maximized Mode being a hidden feature. It is available through the View Settings, which can be accessed by clicking the View Button. Sorry for the error!

This program has an awful lot of hidden functionality. Some of it only available through keyboard shortcuts. It would be useful to have a "View" menu, which is somewhat common in most Windows programs to do something like this; If for no other reason than to provide some self documentation. The menu could list all of the possible panels and views available and show the associated keyboard short cuts. Something like this:

Batcher Ctrl+B
Image Basket Ctrl+Alt+B
Image Details Ctrl+I
Filter Bar Ctrl+F
Maximized Mode Ctrl+M ......

I think you get the idea. Using a menu to toggle or switch views would be easy and would provide a reminder of the keyboard shortcuts. There is so little documentation and I imagine many users never bother to visit this forum.

I guess I need to enter a feature request for this one.
Last edited by tstoddard on 18 Oct 12 15:10, edited 1 time in total.
Tom Stoddard

Hert
Posts: 15909
Joined: 13 Sep 03 7:24

Re: Is the Label Assignment Panel alone sufficient?

Post by Hert » 18 Oct 12 12:36

tstoddard wrote:This program has an awful lot of hidden functionality. Some of it only available through keyboard shortcuts.
The Maximized Mode is not a hidden feature. It is available in the View button
Maximized.jpg
Maximized.jpg (57.65 KiB) Viewed 5604 times
Hert
This is a User-to-User forum which means that users post questions here for other users.
Feature requests, change suggestions, or bugs can be logged in the ticketing system

Mike Buckley
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Re: Is the Label Assignment Panel alone sufficient?

Post by Mike Buckley » 18 Oct 12 13:38

mphillips wrote: I have "endlessly" lobbied Hert to allow a catalog label tree 'browser' in the LAP - Like in V5 - so that I can find the label in the Tree without having to flip between catalog folder - catalog labels - catalog folder - catalog labels
That situation is like telling a painter that he is allowed to keep only one brush at his painting and that he has to leave the room to choose a different brush.
I really miss the "Copy Label Assignments from this image to that Image via the clipboard" (Ctrl- Shift C) feature - its just cumbersome at the moment to click on the Source and destination thumbs - see the brown labels - click each label to go Green - label by label
That's like developing word processing software that can copy and paste only one word at a time.

Not to change the subject, but does the Image Details panel have the capability that copies all details from one image to another? If so, that could be a workaround for getting all of the labels from one image to another. Ironically, if that can be done using the Image Details panel, it's not logical or at least it's not consistent that it isn't also available in the Label Assignments panel.

tstoddard
Posts: 584
Joined: 07 Sep 12 12:51

Re: Is the Label Assignment Panel alone sufficient?

Post by tstoddard » 18 Oct 12 15:04

The Maximized Mode is not a hidden feature. It is available in the View button
I stand corrected, Hert, thank you!
Tom Stoddard

mphillips
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Re: Is the Label Assignment Panel alone sufficient?

Post by mphillips » 18 Oct 12 15:32

Hi Mike
Image Details panel have the capability that copies all details
Quite correct - if you save a details profile by default the keywords are also saved. (The Catalog Labels that are translated into keywords in the Keywords section of the Descriptions Group)

So if you apply that detail profile to other images those Keywords are also applied and thus translated into Catalog Lables.

Well spotted Mike..

BTW - I wonder if I should add this as a Supreme Tip ? or should it be a caveat - make sure that if you save a Detail Profile the Keyword Button is not Green for "Replace Content" but Dull? for "Don't make changes" or Purple? for "Append to Content"

MikeP
Mike Phillips
http://www.mikeandmorag.co.za
D800, CNX2, Supreme

Mike Buckley
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Re: Is the Label Assignment Panel alone sufficient?

Post by Mike Buckley » 18 Oct 12 16:11

That would work, MikeP, but I was actually thinking of something else that would be easier. In V5, the Image Details panel has an icon that allows you to copy all details of a selected image to the clipboard and an icon that then allows you to paste that information to all selected images. If that capability also exists in Supreme, that would be another way of quickly copying catalog labels (keywords) from one image to other images. Unfortunately, I haven't even imported any images into Supreme so I don't know if that capability exists.

jstartin
Posts: 439
Joined: 23 Aug 06 13:47
Location: UK

Re: Is the Label Assignment Panel alone sufficient?

Post by jstartin » 19 Oct 12 14:02

Thanks to all for the responses. Sorry to have asked the question and then disappeared for a while; circumstances beyond my control!

It does seem that I am not the only one finding that the LAP alone is not quite sufficient for confident and convenient labeling. Posts here are from the more expert end of the user spectrum, and I do wonder what the "silent majority" of potential users make of this aspect of PSU; assignment and use of effective hierarchical labeling and versioning are the key to success, so surely they need to be easily performed by diverse users working with obvious and easily accessible tools.

Anyway, there are some good pointers above and I am experimenting. But most of the suggestions do seem to me to be "workarounds" for an intrinsic limitation.

On one specific remark:
gcoupe wrote:
jstartin wrote:If I type a category name into the text box nothing is shown; it seems it only deals with labels. If I know (or just think) I already have an appropriate label somewhere in the Events hierarchy but can't remember exactly what I called it I have no starting point.
Erm, you don't need "a starting point", if by that you mean the start of the hierarchy.
That is what I meant, and, Erm, you might not need one, but I definitely want one :wink: . Different people think in different ways and individuals perform tasks best if methods are aligned with their thinking style. Mine is top-down and visually cued...
I can type in "belg" into the PSU Label search box and get two hits:
Nature/Animals/mammals/livestock/horses/draft horses/Belgian
Places/Europe/Belgium
So, I have photos taken at "William's" birthday party, but William is usually called "Billy" by the family. Did I use William or Billy when labeling photos from previous years? Also, my tree runs Events::Birthdays::"name"::"year" (or perhaps "age"); not "year"::"name". The former suits my wife better for retrieval (all Billy's birthdays are of more interest than all birthdays in yyyy so she can use a single click on the "show all" counter button rather than construct a Birthdays AND William/Billy search) but William/Billy is not an endpoint of the tree.

My natural solution is to look at Events, find Birthdays, look to see if William or Billy is there as a sub-label. If I type "Birthdays" into the LAP box I am offered Birthdays(Events::) but nothing below that in the tree.

I want to see Events::Birthdays::Billy::2011 (if that is what I used before) spelled out in hierarchical order, because that is how my brain works, not 2011::(...). I want to go seamlessly to Billy and create the 2012 sub-label. Then I want to apply Events::Birthdays::Billy::2012 to images easily and securely, even if there are other 2012 end nodes scattered around the LAP.

Actually, I think I have a workable solution, but need to try it some more to be sure :wink: .

Jim
Jim (Photo Supreme: AMD Quad-Core A8-5500 Accelerated Processor 3.2 GHz; internal AMD Radeon™ HD7560D; 4GB DDR3 SDRAM; Win10x64)

Mike Buckley
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Re: Is the Label Assignment Panel alone sufficient?

Post by Mike Buckley » 19 Oct 12 15:26

Jim,

If Supreme allows the use of synonyms with catalog labels (I don't know of it does), you should be able to type either Bill, Billy or William and have the proper catalog automatically appear. That's if you have configured the catalog label with the necessary synonyms.

gcoupe
Posts: 461
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Location: Heelweg, The Netherlands

Re: Is the Label Assignment Panel alone sufficient?

Post by gcoupe » 19 Oct 12 15:33

Re the William and Billy conundrum, what about using synonyms? It might help...

Edit: Mike, you beat me to it. Yes, PSU allows synonyms. Searching on labels returns hits on both the label and its synonyms...
Geoff Coupe
--------------
Photo Supreme /Windows 10 Pro 64 bits + Windows Home Server 2011 = DAM

jstartin
Posts: 439
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Location: UK

Re: Is the Label Assignment Panel alone sufficient?

Post by jstartin » 19 Oct 12 23:06

Mike & Geoff

Thanks for the pointer. I had completely overlooked synonyms; not a feature of my IDI v4 Personal, and not mentioned in the PSU help file or tips facility, but "live" in the dialog box. Might be a + for PSU now that my IDI is stuck at what I already have, but as far as I can see synonyms are only relevant to use of the text-based search box. My difficulty with having only the "flat" LAP are not overcome.

Jim
Jim (Photo Supreme: AMD Quad-Core A8-5500 Accelerated Processor 3.2 GHz; internal AMD Radeon™ HD7560D; 4GB DDR3 SDRAM; Win10x64)

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