How to search without nested Labels?

[Andrey_Ra]

How can I search without nested Labels?
In IDImager I used Ctrl-click for this (single check in checkbox), but in PSU I can not find method to do so.

[Andrey_Ra]

For Example I have such Labels tree:
+Parent
|--Child

Now I take Label "Parent" and drag it to the "Dynamic Search" area, click "Play" button. And SU gives me some photos with Parent only; some - with the Parent and the Child and some with Child only (without Parent).

This is very complicated for me. Because if I see some label in Dynamic Search area I don't understand why system returns me images which does not have this Label at all.

PS. I understand that current style of search may be interesting in some cases (for example for geographical labels), but I think, that such kind of grouping must be especially declared in the interface. Maybe to display such group of Labels (Parent and all childs) in the brackets, or maybe to display whole set of childs, I don't know. I truly believe that Dynamic Search must search for images that contain only those Labels that are displayed in the area. WYSIWYG.

[Hert]

Andrey,

How can I search without nested Labels?

This is currently not possible in Dynamic search. You can log a feature request for that in Mantis; http://bugs.idimager.com

Thank you
Hert

[tstoddard]

Andrey,

I believe I understand what you are trying to do and I have wanted to do the same thing myself. The way that I accomplished this was to change my label structure to make sure that every image in the parent group has a child label assigned to it and then I don't assign the parent label to any images.

For example, I have a label named "Butterfly" with many different child labels representing different species like "Monarch", "Red-spotted Purple", etc. If I have an image of a butterfly that I haven't been able to identify, I use a child label named "Unidentified" for that image. This way I'm assured that every butterfly image is labeled with at least one of the child labels under "Butterfly". I set "Also assign its parents" to "No" in the child label details so that the parent label doesn't get assigned. I want all of my butterfly pictures to have the keyword "Butterfly" in them so I map the parent label to the dc:subject metadata field and I check the "also process parent mappings" in the child labels to accomplish this. Now when I label an image with any of the butterfly's child labels, they get a keyword of butterfly in them but the don't get the butterfly label assigned to them. This way I can be very specific with my searches using the dynamic search feature.

Another good example of this is in photos of my family. I have many photos of my family and have tried to organize them hierarchically. For example, my son-in-law, Matthew, is married and has one child. Originally, I had a parent label named "Matthew" with two child labels one for his wife and one for his child. This made it difficult for me to isolate pictures that had only Matthew or only one of his family members in them, especially in combination with images of other people outside of Matthew's family. To overcome this, I created a label named "Matthew's Family" that contains three child labels named "Matthew", "Danielle", and "Evelynn". I don't assign the "Matthew's Family" label to any labels but I can use it in dynamic search to find all images of any of Matthew's family if I want or I can use only the child labels if I want to be more specific. I extend the hierarchy vertically by creating a label for my wife's family, "Marie's Family", which has a child label for "Marie" and one for "Matthew's Family".

Making these changes was tedious but my catalog was not very large at the time. It was part of my learning curve when I started cataloging my images and is a good example of why you must think through your labeling scheme carefully. There may be better ways to accomplish all of this and there may be flaws in my logic but it seems to be working well for me so I thought that sharing it might be helpful.

[Andrey_Ra]

Tom, thank you for your workaround. Especially for your exhaustive explanations! Now I know one more thing that I can do at my leisure time .

But...

Hert, you see - people are suffer from your new Dynamic Search (in comparison with old good IDImager). Now we need to make empty (fake) labels only to avoid problems with Dynamic Search. I see that current Dynamic Search not only in conflict with WYSIWYG approach (I mean the returning of images that in reality were not tagged by Label that is displaying for the user in the "Dynamic Search" area), but with whole computer automation idea (I mean that users should to do some special steps to make the program work as it should). Programs should make life easier, not harder. And one more consideration: the last thing that I want to do in my life - is the multiply entities unnecessarily (I mean to make these fake Labels).

[Hert]

Andrey, when you log a feature request then you're being more constructive than you are now. Things can be changed, no need to complaint like you do. And I certainly don't recommend creating fake labels.

[tstoddard]

Andrey,

I don't consider them to be "fake" labels, nor are they "empty". They are "unassigned" but they still have functionality associated with them. Perhaps "unassigned parent labels" is a more accurate term to describe them. The ability to do this is very powerful.

People tend to think of labels and keywords as one and the same when they are not. I find the ability to create and use labels that function as group headings and mechanisms that are able to operate on multiple other labels to be quite helpful. A label can be used to assign a keyword and other metadata to an image even without the user having to assign it to an image because of its relationship to its child labels and the ability of labels in Photo Supreme to cascade processing upward in the label hierarchy. This functionality is very powerful and is one of the things that I like most about Photo Supreme.

Perhaps I don't understand exactly what it is that you would like to accomplish but I don't see what feature Hert could add that would be able to do everything that can be done with the creative use of "unassigned parent labels" and a well thought out labeling strategy.

[Hert]

Tom,

I too use the same approach for my private collection. I have all labels organized in hierarchies and only lowest leaf nodes have images assigned. Nevertheless I understand that others may have a different approach and assign images to "parent labels" as well and I agree with Andrey that the current Dynamic Search implementation is less optimal for those. It's a result of my approach, it got overlooked because I never run into such limitations due to my own workflow.

Hert

[Andrey_Ra]

Sorry Hert, I got carried away. I have explained my suggestions in the 0002037 ticket. I believe that it will not prevent users who are accustomed to the current style of work.

[lulumine]

Andrey,

What you need sounds to me like searching for a string as a keyword...and not as a label (assuming that parents are not automaticaly assigned)
I've tried but, unfortunatelly, I didn't found any way to realized that, except a "filter by macro-command" (not so cute than a drag&drop!).
Usefull way to succeed should be :
- your Ctrl+[click]
- a new option "by keywords" in the catalog menu (available for dynamic search...)
- a keyword item in the filter bar (same than label one, but keyword...)
- ...
Does somebody else have an idea for keyword dynamic searching?

[vlad]

Hi Tom,

Andrey,

I believe I understand what you are trying to do and I have wanted to do the same thing myself. The way that I accomplished this was to change my label structure to make sure that every image in the parent group has a child label assigned to it and then I don't assign the parent label to any images.

I am currenly considering my labelling strategy moving forward and I read through this useful discussion. To avoid problems, I am also thinking that a non-leaf, intermediate-level label should be either assigned to all the relevant images or to none . You described very well the benefits of assigning only the leaf labels. The drawback that I see with this is when you decide to expand the hierarchy, i.e. a leaf label (e.g., Butterfly) gets specialized into some other labels (Monarch, Red-spotted), and therefore becomes an intermediate label. What do you do at this point with all the images that have label Butterfly assigned - do you go through all of them and reassign the newly specialized labels? (Or, perhaps, you never expand your hierarchy anymore?) I don't think that's practical for a large number of images.

OTOH, if parent label chains are always assigned (by making sure every label has "Assign its parents" checked), this problem with intermediate labels doesn't arise. But one may still have images without any leaf label assigned, plus you would need to always set the "assign its parents" option, since it's off by default - so that strategy may be risky too. (Btw, is there a special reason that you enable the "also process parent mappings" for every label rather than turning on the global option: "Include all parent labels as keywords"?)

Any new advice?

[jstartin]

....when you decide to expand the hierarchy, i.e. a leaf label (e.g., Butterfly) gets specialized into some other labels (Monarch, Red-spotted), and therefore becomes an intermediate label. What do you do at this point with all the images that have label Butterfly assigned - do you go through all of them and reassign the newly specialized labels? (Or, perhaps, you never expand your hierarchy anymore?)

Personally I would first create a sub-label of the Butterfly node for "Unidentified" (or perhaps, "To be identified" ) . I would select all images labelled "Butterfly", assign "Butterfly|Unidentified" and unassign "Butterfly". Then I can decide whether and when to go through all unidentified butterflies and change to a more specific label.

A variation could be to use a label such as "Old shots without specific labels" if you only want to use the expanded hierarchy going forward.

[Jeff F]

Tom - "People tend to think of labels and keywords as one and the same when they are not."

I am one of these people and am finding this discussion very timely. I am struggling to find a simple structure for my own catalog and love to hear about how others have used the tools at hand to manage their work.

Jeff

[vlad]

Thanks for the tips, Jim - they make sense and I will consider them!

....when you decide to expand the hierarchy, i.e. a leaf label (e.g., Butterfly) gets specialized into some other labels (Monarch, Red-spotted), and therefore becomes an intermediate label. What do you do at this point with all the images that have label Butterfly assigned - do you go through all of them and reassign the newly specialized labels? (Or, perhaps, you never expand your hierarchy anymore?)

Personally I would first create a sub-label of the Butterfly node for "Unidentified" (or perhaps, "To be identified" ) . I would select all images labelled "Butterfly", assign "Butterfly|Unidentified" and unassign "Butterfly". Then I can decide whether and when to go through all unidentified butterflies and change to a more specific label.

A variation could be to use a label such as "Old shots without specific labels" if you only want to use the expanded hierarchy going forward.

[vlad]

How can I search without nested Labels?

I have updated to the latest build and this is now possible by controlling if searches are done hierarchically.

For Example I have such Labels tree:
+Parent
|--Child

Now I take Label "Parent" and drag it to the "Dynamic Search" area, click "Play" button. And SU gives me some photos with Parent only; some - with the Parent and the Child and some with Child only (without Parent).

Simply right-click on Parent in Dynamic Search area, then uncheck Hierarchical and you'll get only the images with Parent assigned. This works with Favorites too. Very powerful!

(For example, you can now easily check for images with Child assigned and Parent unassigned, or the other way around. Please note that hierarchical searches are marked by a star next to the label name.)

Hope that helps,
Vlad

P.S. I'll add this to the PSU Tips thread.