A few newby questions

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simato73
Posts: 31
Joined: 27 Nov 16 23:10

A few newby questions

Post by simato73 » 28 Dec 16 21:42

Hi,

I have started learning PSu about a month ago and decided to purchase it a few days ago.
However as many before me must have found out, the learning curve is steep and detailed written instructions on how to use it is scarce - the main source of knowledge is the forum and searching here is not easy either.

I have two questions to begin with:

1) I am importing photos shot as RAW+JPEG and have Apply versioning ticked (RAW as main version).
However I get a thumbnail for each of the JPEG and RAW images, each with the tab showing that another version is associated to that image.
I thought that with versioning on I should get only one thumbnail for both? (and that I could click on the tab on the left to switch from JPEG to RAW if I so wished). I would like to have only one thumbnail for both versions so that anything I do (star ratings, keywords, etc) are assigned to both - otherwise I end up doing the job twice.
I am feeling that I am missing a very obvious trick here.

2) I have been away and during the trip I have downloaded images to my laptop. There I have done my culling and assigned stars. Now I have copied the directory containing all the shots done during the trip to my workstation and am about to start importing them into my existing PSu database. The images are supposed to stay in the directories where they already are, so I have ticked the appropriate boxes in the import window.
I was under the assumption that the star ratings that I assigned while working on the laptop would be written to the image files and therefore I would see them once the images were copied onto the workstation, but it is not so.
Again, is this expected or have I missed a trick?

Any help would be very welcome.

Simone
Simone

Mke
Posts: 248
Joined: 15 Jun 14 15:39

Re: A few newby questions

Post by Mke » 29 Dec 16 2:45

simato73 wrote:I have started learning PSu about a month ago and decided to purchase it a few days ago.
Congratulations and welcome to the forum!
simato73 wrote:1) I am importing photos shot as RAW+JPEG and have Apply versioning ticked (RAW as main version).
However I get a thumbnail for each of the JPEG and RAW images, each with the tab showing that another version is associated to that image.
I thought that with versioning on I should get only one thumbnail for both?
I am feeling that I am missing a very obvious trick here.
The trick is to put either the JPGs or the RAW files in a subfolder.
But note that not everything you do (star ratings, geotagging, etc) is automatically written to both images in the version set - some you have to either check a box to apply them to both, or cascade them from one version to another. If you want to avoid that (and the risk of forgetting to do so), the best workaround is to apply everything to your RAW files before creating the JPEGs from them. Labels are the exception - they're automatically applied to all images in the version set.
simato73 wrote:2) I have been away and during the trip I have downloaded images to my laptop. There I have done my culling and assigned stars.
I was under the assumption that the star ratings that I assigned while working on the laptop would be written to the image files and therefore I would see them once the images were copied onto the workstation, but it is not so.
Again, is this expected or have I missed a trick?
If you wrote your star-ratings and other metadata back to the images on your laptop, then on importing them to your main machine the ratings will be imported; similarly if you configure to write metadata to a sidecar file, then the metadata will also be imported if you transfer images and sidecars to your workstation.
If this isn't happening you likely need to change your configuration; if you post screenshots of these for your machines I'm sure someone here will advise further.

tstoddard
Posts: 545
Joined: 07 Sep 12 12:51

Re: A few newby questions

Post by tstoddard » 29 Dec 16 2:55

Hi Simone, and welcome to the forum. I can address your first question but would prefer to let others address the second one since I don't have a laptop and never use Photo Supreme remotely.

As per your fist question, the issue of seeing multiple thumbnails per version set confuses many people at first, myself included. You will see multiple thumbnails when you are viewing your catalog by folder. The logic, if I recall, is that in folder view you should be able to see each file that is in the folder(s) you are viewing. It is possible to have files from the same version set stored in different folders and in that case you wouldn't see a thumbnail for any version that is not in the same folder as the others. If you view a collection of files in other modes, such as by category, you will only see only one thumbnail per version set.

One thing that you should also be aware of is that not all metadata is shared by all files in a version set. Star ratings and color labels are two things that are specific to each individual version. There are reasons for that and some people may disagree with those reasons, but, like it or not, that is the way the program works. Most of the metadata you would want to be consistent across all versions in a set do get cascaded. When a label is assigned to a member of a version set it gets assigned to all versions in that set. Labels are tremendously powerful and can do many things when they get assigned so you can add a lot of metadata to all files in one version set very quickly simply by assigning a label to any of the versions in that set.

There has been much discussion in the past with suggestions for enhancing versioning to allow more control over what metadata gets cascaded and what doesn't but as of now, none of those suggestions have been implemented. If you search this forum long enough, you'll find many discussions related to version sets and the way they behave in different contexts.

PSU offers some tremendous advantages over most other DAM software and has helped me to keep my rapidly growing catalog organized. Some of the features that allow it to offer such great productivity also complicate it at times. My suggestion to you is to find a consistent workflow that provides predictable results for you and then stick to it. Setting your preferences to match your workflow will be important but I won't get into that here. I imagine that somebody answering your second question will broach that subject.

Looks like Mke beat me to it but I'll post my answer anyway.
Tom Stoddard

jstartin
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Location: UK

Re: A few newby questions

Post by jstartin » 29 Dec 16 12:08

To extend what Tom has said:

1. If you want to see only one version "stack" when you have raw+jpeg pairs in the same folder and are using folder view then you can achieve this very simply by filtering for "type".

2. By default star ratings and colour labels apply only to individual members of a version set, but this can be changed by adjusting a registry entry. See: http://www.senoiaphoto.com/psu.
Jim (Photo Supreme: AMD Quad-Core A8-5500 Accelerated Processor 3.2 GHz; internal AMD Radeon™ HD7560D; 4GB DDR3 SDRAM; Win7x64)

simato73
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Joined: 27 Nov 16 23:10

Re: A few newby questions

Post by simato73 » 29 Dec 16 13:05

Thanks everyone for the warm welcome.
As I spend more time in the forum hopefully I will get to know each of you better.
I am aware of the tremendous potential of PSu for DAM and this is why I have started using it.

A clarification: the RAW+JPEG are as shot, the JPEG was not done after the fact. I shoot RAW+JPEG because my camera ( the Fuji X-T2) is new and its raw files not well supported (especially the lossless compressed ones).
When I import the images from the card these files go into the same directory.

Version stacks: I have discovered that if I am viewing the catalog by folder and select the images, then click Shift-Cmd-S the versions get detected and only one appears - as I wished. I thought I should have already done this by selecting Apply versioning on import, but there you go...

Stars and colour labels: point taken.
@ Jim: I would be interested in using the tweak you suggested but I have no clue of what I should do. The only thing I can understand is that I should use forward slashes (using a Mac).
Simone

tstoddard
Posts: 545
Joined: 07 Sep 12 12:51

Re: A few newby questions

Post by tstoddard » 29 Dec 16 14:25

simato73 wrote:Version stacks: I have discovered that if I am viewing the catalog by folder and select the images, then click Shift-Cmd-S the versions get detected and only one appears - as I wished. I thought I should have already done this by selecting Apply versioning on import, but there you go...
I'm not sure why that works for you but I don't believe that is how it's supposed to work. The keyboard shortcut Cmd + Shift + S is supposed to find "similar" images. The concept of similar images is something I've never quite grasped and it doesn't do much for me. However, what I see when I use that combination (I'm running Windows and actually using Ctrl + Shift + S) is a new tab being opened and then populated with what PSU considers similar images to the ones I had selected in the original tab. The new tab is a different type of collection and may or may not collapse version sets.

When I experiment with the Ctrl + Shift + S shortcut, I get lots of random results. In some cases I can select one image and I get a new tab with only one item in it. In other cases, I can select one image and get 14,000+ items. Like I said, I don't really understand how "similar" images are supposed to work and I don't ever use that functionality so I haven't tried to figure it out. My point is that while you may have found a way to accomplish what you want, it may not be reliable.
Tom Stoddard

simato73
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Joined: 27 Nov 16 23:10

Re: A few newby questions

Post by simato73 » 06 Jan 17 21:15

tstoddard wrote:I'm not sure why that works for you but I don't believe that is how it's supposed to work. The keyboard shortcut Cmd + Shift + S is supposed to find "similar" images. The concept of similar images is something I've never quite grasped and it doesn't do much for me. However, what I see when I use that combination (I'm running Windows and actually using Ctrl + Shift + S) is a new tab being opened and then populated with what PSU considers similar images to the ones I had selected in the original tab. The new tab is a different type of collection and may or may not collapse version sets.
I must correct myself, I should have written Ctrl + Shift + V (not S).
Having used this a little longer in folder view, it seems that following the operation the version stacks collapse, but this is only a temporary outcome.
As soon as I go to another folder and come back, the effect is gone.
Simone

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fbungarz
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Re: A few newby questions

Post by fbungarz » 06 Jan 17 22:57

Hi Simone,
please read carefully again what Tom Stoddard wrote above!
Ctrl + Shift + V detects versions. You do NOT need to run it again, if you used it during import. In fact, what you are seeing is an artifact. Version detection detects your raw+jpg pairs, groups them into a set and (unfortunately & incorrectly) immediately after running it only displays one of the two.
This is a bug that is not supposed to happen and once you refresh the folder view you again see BOTH versions of your version set.

Here is the logic behind this:
PSu displays images that belong to one version set differently according to the view that you are using. As Tom tried to explain: in Folder View you will see ALL images in a version set = all files in that folder! What you call a "stack" in that view is per default not collapsed, instead all images of the version set are being displayed.

Now, if you use your catalog tree, i.e., the view that displays images according to their labels, then the version yet is collapsed into one stack and per default only the main version is shown.

There are several other views and the images that belong to one version set are displayed always according to the way those views apply to the individual images.
What does that mean?

Well: labels per default always are applied to ALL images in a version set. You cannot assign one label to the main version and a different one to a particular subversion. This means: when looking at your labels it makes the most sense to display all versions of a set collapsed into a stack. When you assign a label to a particular version it also gets assigned to all versions.

Folders are different: you can have the main version and its subversions in one and the same folder, then you see them all side by side. However, if you store the main version in the top folder and its subversions in a folder below, then the top folder shows only the main version and the subfolders will show all subversions (one or several, depending how many different you have in one set).

Now, you have other views: you can look at your catalog grouped by "rating, color label, file type, catalog state, version placeholder, date, image details", or even "all" of the above...

What you see is what applies to your images. If you select "version placeholder" for example and select a particular subversion, then it obviously makes no sense to display the main version or another, different subversion alongside with it. Again, the view is collapsed. If you select by file type and your main version is a JPG, then obviously the main version will be displayed under JPG.

As explained here previously, "color labels" and "star ratings" are a bit tricky: using "Tools - Scripter" you can run the registry hack by Michael Weidner to change how these are applied. Per default you can rate the images of a version set differently and you can apply different color labels. Say you really like the print version that you just edited and give it a 5 star rating, but you don't quite like the main version from which that print version was derived, so you only give it a 2 star. Per default PSu allows you to do that. But if you apply the registry hack this no longer is possible - you rate one image in the set and all its versions receive the same rating, and the same color label...

Now, according to this, if you view your images according to your ratings or color labels, then the images in a version set again are displayed side-by-side - because the default setting assumes that different versions in your set can be rated differently ...

Metadata (= Image Details) again can be different from image to image and [unfortunately] there is no registry hack to change this particular default behavior. So the only way to make sure that the metadata are consistent between different versions is cascading them from one version to all the others (click the tab - click the triangle - select "Cascade ...").

It takes a while to grasp the logic behind it all, but it actually makes sense.

One particular view that does behave differently is "Portfolio". Here you can manually select a particular version to be displayed and PSu will remember that one. Several different versions cannot be displayed side-by-side in that particular view and [very unfortunately !!!] you also cannot filter a particular version in a portfolio collections - filtering versions ONLY works in all other views, not inside portfolios [I consider this a mayor nuisance and filed a feature request to change this behavior - ironically the portfolios were designed to assemble images meant for a specific purpose and that is what many people use versions for: a print version, an email version, a web version, a black & white version ...].

So - to work efficiently with versions it is necessary to understand the logic behind them. If you work with images inside folders, you typically want to manage your files: move an image, rename one etc., etc. If in that view only the main version was being displayed this would be quite a nuisance. By contrast: if you assign labels (which apply to all images) you want not to be bothered by all the different versions, so the category view show the main images only.

Hope that helps.

Cheers,
Frank

simato73
Posts: 31
Joined: 27 Nov 16 23:10

Re: A few newby questions

Post by simato73 » 07 Jan 17 18:05

First of all, WOW! Thank you for the comprehensive reply. It must have taken some time writing it, much appreciated.
fbungarz wrote:Hi Simone,
please read carefully again what Tom Stoddard wrote above!
Ctrl + Shift + V detects versions. You do NOT need to run it again, if you used it during import. In fact, what you are seeing is an artifact. Version detection detects your raw+jpg pairs, groups them into a set and (unfortunately & incorrectly) immediately after running it only displays one of the two.
This is a bug that is not supposed to happen and once you refresh the folder view you again see BOTH versions of your version set.
Here is the logic behind this:
PSu displays images that belong to one version set differently according to the view that you are using. As Tom tried to explain: in Folder View you will see ALL images in a version set = all files in that folder! What you call a "stack" in that view is per default not collapsed, instead all images of the version set are being displayed.

Now, if you use your catalog tree, i.e., the view that displays images according to their labels, then the version yet is collapsed into one stack and per default only the main version is shown.
I should have made it clearer that I did actually read and I think I understood this point; I was merely correcting an inaccuracy in my post, but I understand that in Folder view I see all images (unless I use a filter, of course), with the version sets ("stacks" in Aperture parlance - sorry I am still used to it) not collapsed and that if I want version sets collapsed I have to use one of the Catalog views. What I was not aware of is that the transient behaviour I observed is just a bug.
fbungarz wrote: Metadata (= Image Details) again can be different from image to image and [unfortunately] there is no registry hack to change this particular default behavior. So the only way to make sure that the metadata are consistent between different versions is cascading them from one version to all the others (click the tab - click the triangle - select "Cascade ...").
I am not sure I am following. I can see a triangle between the file name and the number of labels, but clicking on it makes appear/disappear a tool to rotate/assign stars/colors. I have not seen anything else.
By the way, this "cascade" metadata command, can it be applied to only one image at a time, or can it be activated for all the images in a selection?
fbungarz wrote: It takes a while to grasp the logic behind it all, but it actually makes sense.
It is starting to make sense, and I am confident it will completely make sense once I have got used to PSu. I am still struggling now, but I am full of hope for the long term.
fbungarz wrote:One particular view that does behave differently is "Portfolio". Here you can manually select a particular version to be displayed and PSu will remember that one. Several different versions cannot be displayed side-by-side in that particular view and [very unfortunately !!!] you also cannot filter a particular version in a portfolio collections - filtering versions ONLY works in all other views, not inside portfolios [I consider this a mayor nuisance and filed a feature request to change this behavior - ironically the portfolios were designed to assemble images meant for a specific purpose and that is what many people use versions for: a print version, an email version, a web version, a black & white version ...].
I have been wondering about how to use portfolios, the Image basket and the Catalog views. At the moment I am not making an optimal use of PSu.
fbungarz wrote: So - to work efficiently with versions it is necessary to understand the logic behind them. If you work with images inside folders, you typically want to manage your files: move an image, rename one etc., etc. If in that view only the main version was being displayed this would be quite a nuisance. By contrast: if you assign labels (which apply to all images) you want not to be bothered by all the different versions, so the category view show the main images only.
I guess I have to learn to step away from operating from the Folder View, as is now my default. I think this will really be key for the future.
If you have any suggestions on how a different approach could benefit the workflow I described here: http://forum.idimager.com/viewtopic.php ... 95#p114436 that would be very useful for me.
Simone

simato73
Posts: 31
Joined: 27 Nov 16 23:10

Re: A few newby questions

Post by simato73 » 07 Jan 17 21:27

simato73 wrote:
fbungarz wrote:Hi Simone,
please read carefully again what Tom Stoddard wrote above!
Ctrl + Shift + V detects versions. You do NOT need to run it again, if you used it during import. In fact, what you are seeing is an artifact. Version detection detects your raw+jpg pairs, groups them into a set and (unfortunately & incorrectly) immediately after running it only displays one of the two.
This is a bug that is not supposed to happen and once you refresh the folder view you again see BOTH versions of your version set.
Here is the logic behind this:
PSu displays images that belong to one version set differently according to the view that you are using. As Tom tried to explain: in Folder View you will see ALL images in a version set = all files in that folder! What you call a "stack" in that view is per default not collapsed, instead all images of the version set are being displayed.

Now, if you use your catalog tree, i.e., the view that displays images according to their labels, then the version yet is collapsed into one stack and per default only the main version is shown.
I should have made it clearer that I did actually read and I think I understood this point; I was merely correcting an inaccuracy in my post, but I understand that in Folder view I see all images (unless I use a filter, of course), with the version sets ("stacks" in Aperture parlance - sorry I am still used to it) not collapsed and that if I want version sets collapsed I have to use one of the Catalog views. What I was not aware of is that the transient behaviour I observed is just a bug.
Maybe I spoke too fast... or maybe not and this is normal, but: I find what Tom and Frank explained: when I use View by Category or View by Portfolio only the main version is shown. However if I do a Dynamic Search, for example date = 2017 AND (boolean) Status = Geotagged, I see all images belonging to a version set side by side. This is not what I expected based on the above explanations. Can somebody explain why it should be so?
Simone

sanphotgn
Posts: 356
Joined: 26 Aug 07 18:06

Re: A few newby questions

Post by sanphotgn » 07 Jan 17 22:20

fbungarz wrote:
Metadata (= Image Details) again can be different from image to image and [unfortunately] there is no registry hack to change this particular default behavior. So the only way to make sure that the metadata are consistent between different versions is cascading them from one version to all the others (click the tab - click the triangle - select "Cascade ...").
simato73 wrote: I am not sure I am following. I can see a triangle between the file name and the number of labels, but clicking on it makes appear/disappear a tool to rotate/assign stars/colors. I have not seen anything else.
See below.
Cascade.png
Cascade.png (141.3 KiB) Viewed 948 times
Photo Supreme 3.3.0.2589 (64 bits) (Windows)

simato73
Posts: 31
Joined: 27 Nov 16 23:10

Re: A few newby questions

Post by simato73 » 08 Jan 17 11:47

sanphotgn wrote:
fbungarz wrote:
Metadata (= Image Details) again can be different from image to image and [unfortunately] there is no registry hack to change this particular default behavior. So the only way to make sure that the metadata are consistent between different versions is cascading them from one version to all the others (click the tab - click the triangle - select "Cascade ...").
simato73 wrote: I am not sure I am following. I can see a triangle between the file name and the number of labels, but clicking on it makes appear/disappear a tool to rotate/assign stars/colors. I have not seen anything else.
See below.

Cascade.png
Great, thanks, now I got it.
Does this work on multiple versions if I select more than one main version? (as in: cascade labels from each version to the versions "below")
Simone

simato73
Posts: 31
Joined: 27 Nov 16 23:10

Re: A few newby questions

Post by simato73 » 08 Jan 17 16:00

simato73 wrote: Does this work on multiple versions if I select more than one main version? (as in: cascade labels from each version to the versions "below")
I tried it and as far as I can tell the answer is yes.
Simone

Mke
Posts: 248
Joined: 15 Jun 14 15:39

Re: A few newby questions

Post by Mke » 09 Jan 17 1:23

simato73 wrote: I have been wondering about how to use portfolios, the Image basket and the Catalog views. At the moment I am not making an optimal use of PSu...
...I guess I have to learn to step away from operating from the Folder View, as is now my default. I think this will really be key for the future.
FWIW I use folder view most of the time for most purposes, and for the way I work (in conjunction with subfolders so that only 1 version in a set is displayed at once, unless I choose to display them all by clicking on the shaded box highlighted in red below). It's very simple and effective. So you don't have to abandon folder view, it depends on your preferences and choices.

Portfolios I only use for output - to collate selections of images together for viewing as a slideshow or whatever - just the same as I would use a traditional printed portfolio.

Image basket, well that just gets used as a temporary holding pen from time-to-time.
ex1.png
ex1.png (9.27 KiB) Viewed 890 times

vlad
Posts: 965
Joined: 01 Sep 08 15:20

Re: A few newby questions

Post by vlad » 12 Jan 17 22:51

Hi Simone,
simato73 wrote:when I use View by Category or View by Portfolio only the main version is shown. However if I do a Dynamic Search, for example date = 2017 AND (boolean) Status = Geotagged, I see all images belonging to a version set side by side. This is not what I expected based on the above explanations. Can somebody explain why it should be so?
The policy regarding the displaying of versions depends on the type of the view and is cast in stone (...unless you use some filters - see bellow). I can't open PSU and test right now, but do you see all versions for any Dynamic Search? What about the By Date view?

Anyway, I'd like to let you know that I wrote two script filters that could show you only one version in the Folders view (or in any view), should you prefer that: http://forum.idimager.com/viewtopic.php ... 2&p=108957&
(To understand the difference between the two scripts, you might want to read my post from Jan 12th, 2016 - hey, that's exactly 1 year ago! :) )

Hope that helps,
Vlad

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